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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was told recently that someone won a $500,000 law suit. It was appealed and the final settlement was reduced to about $325,000.
The person paid the lawyer about $125,000. They were told by two tax attorneys that they had to pay taxes on the original $500,000 award AND had to pay taxes themselves on the amount the lawyer got too.

I assume this must be right if two tax attorneys agree. :eek:
I assume that the lawyer will get taxed on the amount they received also.
First, isn't that double taxing the legal fees?
Second, why would they have to pay taxes on an amount they nere received?

Please inform the weak of legal and tax minded!

Thanks
 

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Great question, John.
I'm curious as well.
What a travesty it would be if the plaintiff actually had to pay out to win a case in which half a million was awarded.
 

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Bassetman......What's the answer worth to you? I have structured retainer agreements to avoid this very problem. I know the answer well.

Here is the price. We know how you feel about Bush and the Terminator in California so if I answer the question you have to have the following as your signature for 48 hours: Bush is *****in :up:

It must be the only thing in your signature and it must be of regular size type. If you agree I'll post the answer, you place the above in your signature and PM when its done. The time on the PM starts the 48 hours.

Game?
 

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Does that qualify as a legal fee for the purposes of taxation? What it BassetMan doesn't agree to your price? Some of us would still like to know why someone who was shafted badly enough to win a half-million dollar settlement is then double-dipped by the government.
 

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Well not only is Bush *****in but so is life. Lets see what the Bass man has to say, first. :D
 

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First Name -
Jim
Well not only is Bush *****in
I agree completely gb.

Bush is always *****in' about this or *****in' about that...

:D
 

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gbrumb said:
Well not only is Bush *****in but so is life. Lets see what the Bass man has to say, first. :D
I am tempted to go out and run Bassetman down. (I have a suspicion I know where he might be this time of night.) I sure look forward to his response. Good one GB.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
GB, I do not negotiate with blackmailers! ;)
I give my PC knowledge freely, if you want to withhold you legal advice for money, may you should go to Greedy White Boy.com ;)

And yes, Rep could have found me! :D
 

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GB, that was friggin funny!

Basset, heck, give it a go. It is the cheapest price you will ever pay a lawyer (because they do it to help people :rolleyes: ) and will actually get good information.

Though to be fair, you should get to keep the affero thing, that is site support related, right?
 

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gbrumb said:
Bassetman......What's the answer worth to you? I have structured retainer agreements to avoid this very problem. I know the answer well.

Here is the price. We know how you feel about Bush and the Terminator in California so if I answer the question you have to have the following as your signature for 48 hours: Bush is *****in :up:

It must be the only thing in your signature and it must be of regular size type. If you agree I'll post the answer, you place the above in your signature and PM when its done. The time on the PM starts the 48 hours.

Game?
Basset, do it. Regardless, thats funny. :D Gbrumb, and we wonder why everyone hates lawyers. :D
This has to be one of the better barters I have seen since, oh, when Manhattan was bought. Gbrumb, are we allowed to postulate on the answer until you give us the correct answer? :)
 

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Bassetman:

This site may help some:

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/page/0,,id=7050,00.html#Chap2

Quote:

“Allowable legal fees should be deducted on Schedule A as miscellaneous itemized deductions, unless the origin of the claim litigated is related to a Schedule C (independent contractor), or a capital transaction. This guide does not address the proper treatment of legal fees paid and deducted in taxable years prior to the year of recovery.

Quote:

“Generally, individuals, as cash basis taxpayers, may deduct attorneys' fees in the year they are paid, assuming the attorneys' fees otherwise qualify as deductible. In the majority of such cases, the attorneys' fees are paid pursuant to a contingent fee arrangement once damages have been recovered. Where the ultimate recovery is excludable from gross income, either in whole or in part, the payment of contingent attorneys' fees allocable to exempt income are not deductible. IRC section 265(a)(1). The question of the timing and deductibility of attorneys' fees paid prior to resolution of the lawsuit on a noncontingent fee basis requires additional analysis that is not practical to provide in this guide. Examiners should consult with the appropriate Office of Chief Counsel for guidance.

So, I’d say that associated legal fees ARE deductible.

The general language of this site speaks of “recoveries” or “proceeds” not “awards” - - which leads me to think that the actual amount received is taxable, not the amount of the original award.

Of course, lawyers can argue about these type of things until the cows come home.

This discussion reminds me of an incident that happened to my brother. His car broke down near a repair shop. He left the car with the shop. The shop tried to rebuild the engine and screwed it up royally. The shop left his car parked on a public street, where it received many parking tickets!

Brother hired a lawyer who worked on contingency. Brother got an award. Shop owner skipped town (with bro's down payment on the engine re-build) without paying award.

Question: is brother liable to pay attorney fees based upon contingency?

Do I really have to tell you the answer? Of course he was! Attorney fees were based upon amount awarded not amount recovered! Had to pay attorney, court fees, parking tickets… and pay for a new car! Even though he didn’t receive a dime of the actual award! That's life in the big city!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
gbrumb said:
Well not only is Bush *****in but so is life. Lets see what the Bass man has to say, first. :D
OK GB, you got the deal for the stated 48 hours! :rolleyes:
 

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Oooooh! Bassetman! You caved!

I'll bet GB's answer won't be much different from my post #13 (for free!):

Namely, legal fees ARE deducted from the total amount. And the tax is based upon money actually received, not money originally awarded!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
DN, if true that would prove that he charges for telling us what is already known! Thus furthering the stereo type of lawyers! :D
I'll take the chance! :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Up date and a withdrawl of my offer! :D

Good morning Basset
Thanks for the info - I had already reviewed the IRS document.
Also took a peek at the techguy thread. DON'T CAVE !!!!!
First, you need to amend the statement of facts. Clearly the law is that Payee has to include the award in income - no question about that - it was for emotional distress - no physical injury.
The real question relates to the deductibility of the atty fees paid.
Under the interpretation given by the IRS, it is deductible as an itemized deduction subject to the 2% floor. (T tax attorney's, they understand what this means. The problem arises as a result of the Alternative Minimum Tax.
What happens is that the deduction for attorneys fees becomes taxable under the Alternative Minimum Tax - in essence, Payee is required to recompute her income by adding back certain deductions. One of the deductions she is required to add back are the itemized deductions that are subject to the 2% floor. In reality, this means thatthe tax code requires her to add back the attorneys fees, and to recompute the tax. The result is that, in the Payee's case, the actual tax liability more than doubles.
 

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"Clearly the law is that Payee has to include the award in income - no question about that".

I don't doubt that they have to include the award in income. I thought the underlying question is: do they have to pay tax on the full $500K after the award had been reduced. ("They were told by two tax attorneys that they had to pay taxes on the original $500,000 award").

Now the IRS is crazy, but I can't believe that they are THAT crazy! No doubt that they want you to include the original award in your tax papers - - they are always asking for all kinds of extraneous information that is really not pertinent to the final amount that you pay - - they are nosey like that.

But I'd be very much surprised if you actually pay tax on the full amount awarded rather than the actual amount that you collect.

It is a question of semantics here, and you should question your source more closely: does "include in income" mean the final tax you pay is calculated upon the full amount with no allowance made for the reduction of the award, or allowance for the other party failing to pay their obligation? Or, does it only mean that you must make mention of the original full amount in your tax papers? (i.e. similar to gross income versus net income).

P.S. I am glad that you withdrew your offer and thus, did not reward GB for his sociopathic tendencies!
 

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By the way, here is a sample worksheet from the same IRS site that I mentioned.

Notice that they have a space for "original" and "final" damages. Which make me believe that they may collect the information on the original damages, but only tax you on the final damages.

Also, I would think some allowance would be made for cases in which you fail to get paid your damages - - i.e. the other party skips town and leaves no assets behind.
 

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Geeezzzz…….The purpose of my challenge to Bassetman was to lighten the mood up around here, which IMO has gotten rather dark. No blackmail and no sociopath behavior (sorry DN). To prove my point, after you read my brilliant dissertation below, take a look at my new signature. My intent was to display it for the same 48 hours as Bassetman was to display his. I would have posted my response earlier but the firewall system at work now will not let me post to TSG. I can read but can’t participate (sounds of thunderous clapping wave across the US). My response below goes into it a little more in depth then the IRS site and more then the email from Bassetman’s “friends”. I’ve attempted not to make this overly complicated for an issue which is very complicated. Most fights with the IRS deal with the allocation of the jury award.

Bassetman……………….Your factual scenario is lacking in some details so I’ll have to address variables to give a complete answer (by way of example, I’m assuming, at least initially, that award was for a personal injury type suit versus a contract dispute). All states and the federal government exempt compensation for bodily injury, whether from a lawsuit award or a settlement with an insurance company, from taxation. Note that only applies to bodily injury (it also applies to certain types of property damage but I don’t think you want me posting a treatise on this subject). If I sue you for slander and win 500 thousand I pay taxes on that award. It gets more complicated. Assume that as part of my claim for injury to my body from an automobile accident I assert lost wages for 2 months of 10 grand as part of my overall claim. If I settle with the insurance company the IRS and your local state tax collector will, rightfully, argue that you should pay taxes on the 10 grand of your settlement (you would have paid taxes had you not been injured). For that reason lawyers, at least the smart ones, structure a settlement to reflect that the payment is to compensate for bodily injury and pain and suffering. If, however, you’re in a trial setting and your lawyer has asserted the lost wages as evidence then any jury award must, by definition, include the 10 grand in lost wages. You’re screwed, you got to pay on the 10 grand.

The more interesting situation (at least for us lawyers) is the case you described originally. Again, lets assume that the claim is for slander. Any settlement or jury award is going to be subject to possible taxation. Me, as the lawyer, representing the plaintiff, wants to minimize my clients’ exposure to the tax man (as a side note, anyone notice what day it is!). What I do is structure my retainer agreement to provide that the opposing side will pay my legal fee. When I strike a deal with an insurance company (whether before I file suit or after) I have them pay me direct what ever my contingence fee may be and the other portion to my client. By way of example, if I settle the claim for 450 thousand and my contingency fee is one-third, the insurance company writes me a check for 150 and my client 300 thousand. The insurance company doesn’t care either way and, if negotiated correctly, the two check requirement becomes a major part of the settlement terms. The IRS and state taxing authorities have no claim for the taxes against my client as to the 150 paid to me because of the terms of the retainer agreement and the methods by which the settlement payment was made (obviously I have to pay taxes on the 150). This has been challenged in court and upheld as legitimate method to reduce the tax burden on the plaintiff. Tax avoidance is a God given right.

Now if the plaintiff has to go to trial he is screwed. The jury is going to make an award. The total sum is subject to tax even though the plaintiff pays a third to the lawyer. There is currently no mechanism in the law to have juries make separate awards in this type of situation. This is one of the many factors a lawyer considers when evaluating a settlement offer versus a possibly larger trial award. Think about it. If I’m offered 450 grand to settle with the “two check” settlement system but I believe that I can get a larger award at trial I have to determine just how much larger must it be to be in my clients’ best interest to go forward with the trial. If I go to trial and only get a 500 grand award from the jury my client has just been screwed. You should also understand that the plaintiff could reduce his tax burden by deducting the attorney fees he pays at the generous IRS rate of “the amount over 2% of adjusted gross income.” (See IRS Publication 529.)

This discussion only applies to individuals. If you’re a business or corporation then obviously you can’t suffer bodily injury. However, notice that there is no need to practice tax avoidance. As a business or a corporation you can deduct the legal expenses in full (no 2% threshold). From that standpoint determining whether a settlement or trial is more advantageous to your client because demonstrably easier.

One last point, if what you posted had to do with a contract dispute i.e. “he ordered a million widgets and didn’t pay”, then the person is just paying taxes on the profit he would have had had the person paid as agreed.

As to why the tax lawyers think the plaintiff has to pay taxes on 500 thousand rather than court reduced 325 thousand is beyond me. I would need additional facts to be able to respond. Generally, if a court, whether a trial court or an appellate court reduces a jury award the reduced award is the amount possibly subject to taxation.

If you have additional questions let me know.

CYA: NOTE THE FOLLOWING: The statements made in this post are not to be relied upon as legal advice. You should always consult with legal counsel in your jurisdiction for legal advice and assistance.
 
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