[Davey7549]

Let it be said during an election year one should take all said, by politicians and their parties, with a grain of salt. Sprinkle in a few bits of pepper, garlic, adding a dash of tabasco and you have seasoned the election with a proper concoction. This table fair seems to be the diet of the daily rhetoric supplied by both sides.
What effect if any does this constant drumbeat of failure on one side and flip flop on the other have with current real life affairs going on in this World?
Well little if any I would presume since most know it is only the natural way for US politics!
I am sure Middle eastern people think highly of we people in the US and fully understand our political process is little but a show of smear, jeer, and shake hands when its over. I am also sure they understand that what is said here is not really how we feel about each other or about the bloodshed going on in the Middle east so why bother listening until it is all over. They know all Americans are united and will not abandon our task and let Iraq fall to the hands of militants.
How do they know this?
They know because we have always stood by them, kept our word, and never abandoned them before so why would we leave now. Why would we let a renegade Cleric and his followers change our minds and decide too leave.
They should know we would never do that!
Just because they hear a constant drumbeat for cutting and running from overseas they should never believe what they hear, especially during an election year. They should believe GWB and JK and take them at their word and ignore all the chattering in the media and from political parties. They should understand that just because we have a massive divide here in the states they do not have to have the same with their newly forming government. They should know we stand behind them and only have their best interests at heart. Why should they know all these…. Because we tell them so everyday with our press releases, with our united front, and of course with our statements from our political leaders and their supporters.

Dave

 

[oldie]

Hi Davey. You mention a massive divide in the States. But that same divide is also a fact in the UK. In Spain, Japan and elsewhere. Public opinion is changing. My personal views are changing too. I am old enough to remember Vietnam and Korea along with others.

I note that in Iraq, innocent civilians are now being terrorised and used as pawns

It will end, one day, but at what price?

Regards - Oldie

 

[eggplant43]

Davey, what did we eventually do in Viet Nam?

What was the take of many in Gulf War I when we didn't finish the job, promised the Shia they'd have our support, and then let thousands of them die when they went against Saddam?

What do many feel today about our removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and our post war involvement there?

Sure, politicians will frame things in their worst light in order to gain advantage, but do we have to give them ammunition?

 

[RSM123]

Britons clueless about history

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13047091,00.html

If people here in a modern, developed nation with 14 years of free education offered to them are this dense - then what hope is there for mutual understanding between those of the 'First World' and those of the 'Third' ?

I always wonder about the validity of such surveys, who is interviewed, what section of the social strata they are drawn from - as it has to be considered that those drafting the survey have their own agenda and could therefore could be deliberately selecting subjects likely to produce results that they actually want to find. As Mark Twain said 'Lies, damned lies, and statistics'.

However clearly from the above report, it would suggest that there are considerable numbers of 'free thinking' people here - each with a vote, who would appear to be completely uninformed about key events that have shaped the development of mankind.

 

[eggplant43]

Everyone knows that Conan was real, and is now known as the Governator

 

[Davey7549]

Oldie
I agree there is a divide in many Nations and the thought processes are slowly changing. However this relentless second guessing, smearing, and drumbeat for retreat is further endangering our troops. It is emboldening the terrorists and providing them direction to the hot buttons of western civilization. If one does not want to believe that then just have a look at the latest tactic used. Kidnapping of certain nationalities and using them as hostages until the particular Country agrees to withdraw from the rebuilding of Iraq. I wonder where that idea came from! I am aware kidnapping for ransom is not new but the demands are and I might add are a direct result of Spain's statement of withdrawal after their dreadful Madrid attack. This type of tactic was never present before.
As far as the comparison to Vietnam I think is ludicrous! In Nam we were fighting a guerrilla war. Totally different than a urban terrorist war. The only similarities are using children as weapons. As far as civilians being used as pawns and being terrorized, since when is that new. That is part of the terrorists handbook for fighting. Have an army of civilians in front of you for the purpose of stopping bullets and run when most are killed. Afterwords of course is point fingers at the troops who were being attacked stating how many innocents were killed.

Bruce
What was eventually done in Vietnam has no parallel to this war on terrorism. We were in a conflict that we should never of been involved in, had no prayer of winning, and were sold a story it was to prevent the spread of Communism.
I sorry I just do not see the relevant connection to fighting a country of military to fighting a non-descript group of terrorists.
I do agree however we should of ended this Suddam thing in the first gulf war but it was recommended by our allies that this would not be advised nor supported.
Your statement about Afghanistan I do not understand.........

RSM
People are clueless of the truth because no matter what happens only one side is spun which is always the negative effects of conflict. There is little said about the positive or the eventual outcome. Most get their news through biased news outlets and unfortunately believe what they are hearing so their opinions are formed accordingly.

Bruce
Cheap shot!!! Conan
At least he always ended up with the good looking woman. Call him the James Bond of mythology!

Dave

 

[RSM123]

Quote :I do agree however we should of ended this Suddam thing in the first gulf war but it was recommended by our allies that this would not be advised nor supported.
Your statement about Afghanistan I do not understand.........

As I understand it - the opinion of those allied to the US was not what determined the decision of whether or not to puruse the war all the way to Baghdad. It was, I believe, that the UN Resolution was confined to ejecting Iraqi forces from Kuwait - there was no additional provision for the overthrow of the Ba'athist regime. I could be wrong here - but I think not.

Had Bush 'Snr' given the order to cross into Iraq with the above objective in mind, I think its accepeted that the arab members of that coalition would have withdrawn all support (including the Saudis.) Nevertheless if the resolution did not stipulate that as an acceptable part of the whole campaign, it is quite likely that many of those criticising Bush for not having done it, would instead be saying he exceeded his remit.

Damned if you do - damned if you don't.

 

[oldie]

Davey - I will not quote you - for the sake of brevity - but I will quote the British Home Secretary - today ..... "The present situation in Iraq is far worse than any of us (? Government) could have imagined"

No doubt he will be questioned on that sweeping statement when Parliament next meets

Oldie

 

[AlbertB]

I am sure Middle eastern people think highly of we people in the US and fully understand our political process is little but a show of smear, jeer, and shake hands when its over. I am also sure they understand that what is said here is not really how we feel about each other or about the bloodshed going on in the Middle east so why bother listening until it is all over. They know all Americans are united and will not abandon our task and let Iraq fall to the hands of militants.
How do they know this?
They know because we have always stood by them, kept our word, and never abandoned them before so why would we leave now. Why would we let a renegade Cleric and his followers change our minds and decide too leave.
They should know we would never do that!
Just because they hear a constant drumbeat for cutting and running from overseas they should never believe what they hear, especially during an election year. They should believe GWB and JK and take them at their word and ignore all the chattering in the media and from political parties. They should understand that just because we have a massive divide here in the states they do not have to have the same with their newly forming government. They should know we stand behind them and only have their best interests at heart. Why should they know all these…. Because we tell them so everyday with our press releases, with our united front, and of course with our statements from our political leaders and their supporters.

I'm sorry Davey, I am always of the mind to try to stand behind you in discussion because your position is so honestly chosen and simply stated, and I value your honesty highly, but this time I feel your position is far too naive.

All of us who are part of the occupation force in Iraq are doing nothing more than take part in an adventure in someone else's foreign country for our own reasons. We will drop our involvement and come home as soon as it suits our purpose, any one of us. I do not mean to imply that there is no element of compassion in our being there, I firmly believe that in some quarters there is great humanitarian feeling and sacrifice, amongst the men on the ground for one. But as soon as we cease wanting to see ourselves as doers of good deeds around the world even that will evaporate and we will leave in a heartbeat.

The Iraqis know this.

They are the only ones there for the duration with no other choices. It is their country and most of them have no option to leave.

As to understanding the rhetoric of our political processes and being able to read the truth amongst the myth, again that is far too much to expect of such an alien foreign culture. How much do you know in depth of their political processes, except that you imagine they have none, and that with all of the media and information we have at our fingertips which they as yet do not? And to what depth do you have any faith in their system? I say this not to criticise but merely to point out the difficulty of obtaining a clear view of such deep matters at a distance and through the veil of a social background totally devoid of contact points with our own. Would you place the future of your country, your lifestyle, and the lives of your family in their hands with confidence? I think not.

The Iraqis know that we will leave them. They see the flim flam of our political leaders machinations with contempt because to them where they sit, it is real and what we all stand for. And how could we expect any different? After all we all know that France is populated by cowards, Germany by self servers, Russia by gangsters, Ireland by gun toting terrorists, China by human rights abusers, North Korea by war mongers, don't we? With these preconceived stereotypes as examples I urge you to take a fresh view of how the Iraqis see us all, and give them a little credit, they could be more right than wrong!

 

[Davey7549]

Albert
Naive maybe but I do believe we have troops in harms way at the moment and our political rhetoric is doing harm not good. Our problem is not with the Iraqi people in general but with the radicals of Islam. Giving the radicals a sense of accomplishment will only inflame more violence not suppress it. If one thinks leaving at this point in time is the appropriate move to make then they may be surprised at the continuation and proliferation of terrorism. This war on terrorism will not be over anytime soon since a whole generation is of the mindset dying for a cause is your gate to heaven and the only way to heaven is worshiping Allah through Islam making all the rest Heathens to be disposed of.
What part of radical should one understand! No amount of talking or understanding will change people with that headset.

The point I am trying to make here and with my first statement is simple.
We have people from our countries in harms way and our actions and rhetoric is costing lives.
Do I agree with the Iraqi war is not in debate since I have mixed emotions on that subject but much of what is said by our politicians and our media outlets is adding fuel and ways of igniting more violence against our peoples.

Dave

 

[oldie]

Davey - can anyone argue with Alberts statement?

The Iraqis know that we will leave them. They see the flim flam of our political leaders machinations with contempt because to them where they sit, it is real and what we all stand for. And how could we expect any different? After all we all know that France is populated by cowards, Germany by self servers, Russia by gangsters, Ireland by gun toting terrorists, China by human rights abusers, North Korea by war mongers, don't we? With these preconceived stereotypes as examples I urge you to take a fresh view of how the Iraqis see us all, and give them a little credit, they could be more right than wrong!

Another growing problem is the world stage. Public, only today, taking to the streets in Japan. Italy too. Tomorrow?

I feel so saddened when I view the latest news from America and see the yellow ribbons

Oldie

 

[bassetman]

Davey, I oppoesed the war in the first place.
Do I think we can pull out now? No, bad idea.
How long should we stay?
Shortest period of time possible.
I Wrote to one freind whe whole year he was there and am still writting my friend in Afgahnastan. I offered Sarge and another member here going on active duty access to my message board for soldiers and offered to write them. Sarge thanked me, but has not taken up my offer to stay in touch.

I know people who say they support the war, but never once wrote their good friend in a year while he was in Iraq. 'splain that one to me!?

 

[plschwartz]

Davie:
I believe that it was GBShaw who suggested that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Yates in the poem I often quote has the worst of us filed with"passionate intensity". It is in this passion the anti-Saddam "Vulcans", knowing the truth selectively filtered forstered and fudged intelligence. They were only interested said one of the Vanity Fair reporters on Charie Rose last night, in learning what they already knew Chaney made ten sepsarate trips to the CIA, unheard of. Analysts it seems were handed back reports to resubmit. What intelligence finally was acepted as true and passed on???
I am willing to believe that Bush was not originally of their mind set but induced into it, and after him faithful Condi.
All men are prone to their passions as those of sex or those of certainty
In a priest or minister I prefer him being passionate in his certainty; unhappier if there is a sexual passion.
Which do you prefer in a president?

 

[pyritechips]

People are clueless of the truth because no matter what happens only one side is spun which is always the negative effects of conflict

I hate to disagree with you Davey, but "only one side" spins the facts? And I assume you mean the anti-war side?

I stated another threat where I rejected the wword "spin" and called it for what it is: lies. My news station was showing me one thing and an American General was telling me another. What am I to believe, my own eyes or somebody that doesn't necessarily have best interests at heart? You said "I am sure Middle eastern people think highly of we people in the US and fully understand our political process is little but a show of smear, jeer, and shake hands when its over. I am also sure they understand that what is said here is not really how we feel about each other or about the bloodshed going on in the Middle east so why bother listening until it is all over. They know all Americans are united and will not abandon our task and let Iraq fall to the hands of militants." Well, that may all be true but at this point I think what's important to realize is that for the Iraqi people they are less concerned about how the American people think than they are about what's happening on the ground.

The world is not safer with Saddam removed from power and Iraq is not a better place. I don't see any good coming out of this fiasco.

 

[Heimy]

"Trying to eliminate Saddam .. would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible ... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq ...there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land." - George H.W.Bush

 

[bassetman]

Smart man!

 

[AlbertB]

Albert
Naive maybe but I do believe we have troops in harms way at the moment and our political rhetoric is doing harm not good. Our problem is not with the Iraqi people in general but with the radicals of Islam. Giving the radicals a sense of accomplishment will only inflame more violence not suppress it. If one thinks leaving at this point in time is the appropriate move to make then they may be surprised at the continuation and proliferation of terrorism. This war on terrorism will not be over anytime soon since a whole generation is of the mindset dying for a cause is your gate to heaven and the only way to heaven is worshiping Allah through Islam making all the rest Heathens to be disposed of.
What part of radical should one understand! No amount of talking or understanding will change people with that headset.

The point I am trying to make here and with my first statement is simple.
We have people from our countries in harms way and our actions and rhetoric is costing lives.
Do I agree with the Iraqi war is not in debate since I have mixed emotions on that subject but much of what is said by our politicians and our media outlets is adding fuel and ways of igniting more violence against our peoples.

Dave

Davey, I hope you don't read any criticism of any kind into my post. I used the word "naive" in a kindly way admiring the simplicity of view which it implies, not stupidity by any means. I am neither critical of you, nor of your opinions, nor of the war, nor of staying there, nor of the men who as you rightly say are in harm's way, nor of anyone who wants the troops to leave, nor of anyone who wants them to stay. But I do have one passion which has made me a royal pain in the butt ever since I first came here, and that is people's perception of you in the USA and of us in the UK, and in this case, the knock on effect and consequences of that perception.

Perception right or wrong is reality in the mind of the perceiver. If an Iraqi perceives Americans in a certain way and shoots one of your troops because of that, to the Iraqi and ultimately to the dead soldier that perception is reality. I fear you have all missed that fact, and continue to miss it because it would be uncomfortable to have to face the mirror of other's perceptions of you and whether or not an image change to the outside world, though uncomfortably like giving in, may be ultimately the best policy.
You say:

Our problem is not with the Iraqi people in general but with the radicals of Islam.

If only that were true. Why do the people of Iraq not band together and give up the radicals in their midst? Why are the ordinary people always so quick to complain about American attitudes and actions in Iraq? Because they have a certain perception of yourselves, right or wrong and of course fed by unscrupulous sources. And, in the mind of the Iraqi, that perception has had real cause in its development. I agree with you that most Iraqis, though different in their thinking to myself, are no less reasonable than I, but I have a different exposure to life and others around me. Their unique restricted view of and exposure to you and I will inevitably foster an opinion of us. Can that opinion be true? Never, as they do not live amongst us every day and see us in our entirety. But is it any less real? No, because the consequences of their holding that opinion of us, in their every action towards us, cannot be shrugged off by saying "but you are wrong in how you see us but why should I care". If they shoot at us because of a misplaced hatred we will still die, and our death will have done nothing to change their opinion and prevent the death of the next American! That is the reality I speak of.

There are only two ways to ultimately address this problem. Firstly, refuse to accept there is any need to cultivate a better outward image, in the same way as many of us refuse to spruce ourselves up when meeting our girlfriend's parents for the first time, "they must take me as I am or screw them". You may still get the girl but it is a lot harder to live with afterwards so does it last? Or secondly, accept that, while you will never be seen as perfect, a little obvious effort to clean up the act will be seen as at least trying and will gain you sympathy and some bending of attitudes in return.

Which way do we go?

 

[bassetman]

AlbertB, I have never considered you a pain-in-the-butt!
I appreciate others views of our country and the image we portray. Sometimes it is uncomfortabel to look in the mirror, but last time I checked it doesn't lie.

 

[AlbertB]

Sometimes it is uncomfortabel to look in the mirror, but last time I checked it doesn't lie.

Not for the most honest of you BM, (and us too of course).

 

[Davey7549]

Oldie
I do not disagree the perception of certain Countries by others may be distorted. Much of this is due to misinformation and misunderstanding. However the irons are in the fire at the moment and our peoples are being challenged\killed by radical terrorists. Whether this war was right or wrong will be debated by historians for eons, but our task is to support our people in harms way.
I also agree this kidnapping situation is going to cause many of the different Nations peoples to rise in protest. That is why I stated backing down from terrorists will only give them direction to hit the hot buttons.

Look guys I do not agree with the Iraqi conflict for the most part but since we are in it we need to support our people in any way, shape or form. They have families to come home to. If we continue on the course of protest and negative information all that will happen is further violence. Years ago when we were in Vietnam we did not have the instantaneous global network of 24 hour new services. Today we do! If someone mis-steps in Alaska the World knows about it instantaneously.

John
I agree! The shortest amount of time possible but stability must be achieved.

Paul
If there was deliberate misinformation then that will eventually come out. Now it is only speculation on many peoples part.

Jim
I view spin not as lies but as taking the truth and speaking about it in such a way leaving others to conclude a viewpoint you wish them to. There is no lying involved but much omission misleading peoples thinking.

Also pro-war and anti-war people both spin at times to make their points valid.

Albert
There will be much time for personal reflection when this conflict has passed and our people are out of harms way. Hopefully we will all learn from it and with a bit of courage we may all face our own demons.

Dave