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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I use a site called open diary and said in one of my notes how the site lists rules of don't insult, don't swear...basically be a decent person, but they are never upheld. I thought it was aweful that in some OD's you could read how to kill yourself or how to be successfully vomit your food up to be thin. I said these were inapproperate for all the many young teens on the site who could be influenced. Well I got a real stronge response to it. Most agreed with me but then one did not and said the usual to what we all here "it's up to the parent or guardine, not me to care about someone elses kids." This just blew me away. I mean in first respect sure, they are right, but then in later respect not all kids have parents who care so it leaves these rules and laws to protect them and it is up to us as decent people to uphold them. Afterall they are put there to protect everyone, and without them our world would be...well...gun slingers time.

So basically I wanted to here how you guys stand on how far is too far to care about other peoples kids and the laws that protect us all?
 

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Hmmmm. I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you talking about rules and laws regarding the content of the Internet or kids in general. In other words, if you are talking about regulating the content of the Internet, you open a big can of worms. If you are talking about laws to protect children in general, that is an entirely different question. Maybe you can clarify?
 

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Hi,

I agree with you that certain content is inappropriate for children (ie-a step-by-step guide to commiting suicide), but unfortunately, freedom of expression is a pretty wide blanket, and we cannot censor or forbid material just because we find it distasteful. I think that the only feasible solution to protecting children, is to introduce better safeguards from adult-oriented content on the internet. We have such safeguards to prevent the sale of liquor, tobacco, and other products that we deem "adult", and yet the internet remains, in a sense, a "free-for-all". I think that steps are being taken in the right direction by certain sites requiring actual proof of age, as opposed to saying "Are you really over 18?". I think that governments should require ISP's to thoroughly review any content before they allow it to be posted. If any material is deemed inappropriate for children, then those who run the sites should have to make everyone verify their age, before allowing access. Right now, I think that only some adult sites have this in effect.
However, I do want to say that in the last 10 years, it seems as though more and more youth-related crime is occuring, and the blame for this is lying on the internet, or violent movies, or music. This is complete nonsense. Society is not responsible for raising your children, and instilling a set of values and morals upon them. Our responsibilty is to not participate in or create something which may harm or corrupt a child. Ensuring a good upbringing is the responsibilty of the parents of those children.
 

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How many think it's OK to let your children go out
anywhere (brothels, etc.), anytime, without you
knowing where they are or what they're doing?

The internet is basically a door to the world,
with all it's treasures and trash.

PARENTS: MONITOR YOUR KIDS. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Cheers, Mac
 

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Often it is the same people that allow their children to go out, without knowing where they're going or who they're with, that blame their kid's behaviour or mistakes on movies, music, TV, and the internet (anything but their piss-poor parenting).
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
mulder, I think what I am asking is...whether it is right to dismiss any laws or just common decent ideas knowing that children maybe looking on.

Like Mac said there is no exceptions.

But not all kids out there have perants or guardines who watch over or guide them while they surf the net, and when I saw this one site were they actually stated their rules but were not upholding them. I found it terrible becuse many kids from ages 14-18 use the site, and as we all know these are the ages when most teens are either depressed or suicidle at some point.

K, i've lost my point now...lol. Basically i was upset because someone chose to not care and their OD was full of stuff you wouldn't want anyone reading, eg: how to kill yourself successfully.

I was annoied by irrisponisibility towards others younger then ourselves.

The internet is a shopping mall full of a lot of great things but more so I think a lot of bad things our kids can get into...including ourselves. I think it should be regulation that if you have children in the house who have access to the computer that they are given their own IP so that they can in no way visit any site that may be insuiteable. Everything needs a limit...even the internet.
 

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OK, but I think that's up to the individual parent, not the government. I don't agree with any attempt to "regulate" the Internet although I don't agree with much of what is on there (a large percentage is pornogrophy). That then brings up the issue of what is dangerous to children. Frankly, I'd rather have my children on a pornogrophy site than one that promotes violence, if I had to choose. However, I don't think the Internet is any different then any other instance in life. I expect my children to know right from wrong. We've spoken with them and they know they are not to go on any sight that's "dirty" and they both (ages 9 and 11) know exactly what we mean. However, I AM NOT going to police it just like as they get older I would not attempt to find out whether they were doing anything I didn't like (i.e., sex, smoking pot, etc.). I expect them to police themselves and obey the rules of the household until such time they demonstrate they can't do it.

Bottom line is I nor any of you can shield your children from anything. If they are inclined to do drugs, have premarital sex, surf porn sites on the Internet, or whatever, they are going to do it regardless of, and often in spite of, your rules to the contrary. All you can do is lead by example by emphasizing good moral values, courtesy to their fellow human being, the importance of bulding their own values, etc. and most importantly, PRACTICING IT YOURSELF. It is impossible to force your children to do or not do something, especially when you don't yourself. And of course, I'm not talking about 5 or 6 year olds--I'm talking about as they get old enough to start formulating their own values and morals.

One thing I think is very important is the participation of activities outside of school. I encouraged strongly my girls to play sports, which both of them do as I think its an excellent way to learn valuable lessons for later in life and keep them out of trouble. Both have taken up an instrument to play, and the list goes on an on. Its like the old saying, "idle hands are the devils work" or something like that. Keep 'em involved in positive activities and set an example is all you can reasonably do. After that, its in God's hands, or whatever power you believe controls these things.
 

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Mulder,

When I spoke of "regulations", I wasn't referring to government control over content, I was referring more to a need for ISP's to be more responsible for what their customer's are posting. The advertisement industry has strict regulations on what is acceptable, and what is not. These regulations are in place in print media, television, billboards, radio, etc. If I were to try to buy advertising space on a billboard, and told the company that owned that billboard that I was planning on writing out suicide instructions in giant letters, or putting up a pornographic photo, do you think they would allow it? Of course not. So why should the internet be any different?
I definitely agree that parents must shoulder a great portion of the responsibility, but I don't think that absolves anyone without children from the responsibility of doing their part to protect them. It is an unfortunate reality that kids are targeted and preyed upon (well into their teens), and I sincerely hope that you won't resign to letting your kids completely "police" themselves, as I'm sure they'll need your guidance for many years to come.
 

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I agree. There's a reason the legal age for the
most part is 18 (drinking is 21 ain't it?)... :)
 

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I sincerely hope that you won't resign to letting your kids completely "police" themselves, as I'm sure they'll need your guidance for many years to come.
You're missing the point. The only way a child learns responsibility is to allow them to be responsible. I'm not saying I'm going to tell my daughter she can come home anytime she likes. When she starts dating or going out with friends (i.e., unsupervised by adults), she'll have a time she has to be home. If she does not and the reason for not isn't reasonable, she'll lose some privileges.

There are parents who believe they need to protect and shield their children from all the evil and bad there is in the world. I don't agree with that. I think the children need to learn as young as possible to start defining their own moral code and my sincere hope is they will not surf the porn site on the internet because they have a moral repugnancy to it. I'm not going to put protections on the computer to stop them from doing it--I personally don't agree with that, but I can understand another parent wanting to do it. My belief is that if I allow my children great personal freedom (as I had when I was a child), they will be more discerning adults. You can't expect a child to act responsibly until you GIVE THEM THE FREEDOM TO!

That's my point about not "policing" them. That's not the same as letting them do whatever the hell they want.
 

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Grrrrr... there's so many damned answers to this question I can't seem to pick the right one!:confused:

We've got to give kids some credit... just because there's information on a web site on suicide 101, it does NOT mean that they will go out and do it!
And how many people need to be instructed on how to throw up? It's not that difficult!
:eek:
Now I'm not naive enough to believe that children are all smart and have learned right from wrong, but censorship is not the answer.. it has never been the answer. Better education about the things we're afraid of is.
 

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Darn it Mulder!!

Will you please stop printing my own views!! I want you to go back to your normal silly ideas, and leave my brilliant ones alone!:D


In all honesty, I think we can chalk this one up to another we can agree on!

It scares me to think of someone else, or a group of "moral majority" wannabees, deciding that they know best for my child. That is what my fear is of what GreenIs proposed. It's a great idea to set guidelines and standards, but some people take it too far, and you all of a sudden have enforced laws that are stupid and nonsensical.

the laws against suicides is one. how are you to enforce this one?
 

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In actuality, Randi, the law against suicide is a good thing and not because anyone thinks its going to deter anyone from doing it. What it is for is that many people who attempt suicide are not successful, probably because they don't really want to be successful. But what it does is lets authorities take them into custody and "hold" them where they can be given medications and hopefully deterred from a second attempt.

Interesting thing about depression. People think its a mental thing or that its caused by great stresses or tragedy. The truth is that clinical depression (as oppossed to someone feeling "down")is an organic condition caused by an imbalance of chemicals in the brain. The only effective treatment for it is anti-depressant medication. Counseling is actually a bad thing for a person who is severely depressed because it may cause the person to avoid the medication they need. The modern psychiatrist DOES NOT recommend any counseling and in fact recommends against it until a person has been on a course of anti-depressants for several months and is out of danger of suicide. Only then will they allow counseling, if the person desires.

But your point Randy about the religious right is important because many of those organizations are oppossed to the use of anti-depressant medications believing that faith in God is all anyone needs. Its like telling a diabetic all they have to do is have faith in God and they don't need their insuline--ridiculous.

Recently my niece suffered from severe post pardom depression and I recall my sister saying "we have to get her off the drugs" and I just about ripped her heart out of her chest. Well meaning relatives, unfortunately, believe they can help the depressed person with "emotional support" when in reality they should step aside and let the doctor treat the condition. I'm not saying you don't give moral support, but you DON'T give recommendations as to how to "get better". You wouldn't do it for a diabetic and you shouldn't do it for a person suffering from depression. Both conditions are organic and can only be treated effecticely with medication. Bottom line is you let a medical professional treat the condition--you don't do it for yourself or for your loved one.

PS--now watch the people that come out of the woodwork on this one :)
 

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Point of order Mr. Moderator, it is against the law to attempt suicide, it is not against the law to commit suicide, for obvious reasons. Death is the forgiver of all transgressions and some taxes too.
 

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GB - If it is NOT against the law to (successfully) commit suicide, then how can they prosecute Dr. Jack Kevorkian for assisting someone to do something not against the law?

My guess is that it IS against the law to commit suicide, only it is a bit difficult to prosecute someone for it!
 

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I agree that it is mostly up to the parents. However, people still need to use common sense. If it is meant to be a site for all ages, don't post inappropriate content. Parents need to instill values in their kids when they are young and they should do well in the future. Of course you need to guide them even when they are older, but I think most values come when you are young. My morals were taught to me by my parents and what they told me is what became my vision of right or wrong. Believe it or not, I am 15 and have NEVER looked at porn on the internet. I think that premarital sex is wrong. (that puts me in a large minority among guys of my age) Not that I am not interested, obviously, but my parents taught me that those things are wrong. So I guess I can say that my parents had a very large influence on my life.
 

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DN----In most states your guess would be wrong (can't tell with Calif., suicide is ok if your karma is really bad:) )

The reason assisting a suicide is a crime is because the state legislature made it a crime. So you can have the situation were the person dead has not committed a crime but the person who assisted him in getting into that condition did.

You can also have the reverse. Say the person attempts suicide with assistance but is unsuccessful. The person assisting hasn't committed a crime because it was unsuccessful but the person attempting to die has.

Hey, I don't write the laws, I just have to deal with them.
 

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Ok... I think it is time for my two cents on this one... (and please, if anyone passes this along in anyway, please omit the specific references... just in case anyone does) This is just the kid's opinion on this thread...

This, first of all, has gone way out of wack from the original post... (but that isn't a bad thing) In regard to "policing" your kids and suicide, I am a senior in high school and I just lost a friend to the philosophy of "letting your kids run free"... umm, I mean, letting them stick to instilled morals, ect. This friend apparentely couldn't take things anymore and her parents basically said "you get to solve this one, you are a big girl" and so her solution was to jump off the 50th street bridge onto 35W during rush hour on Spetember 9th of this year. (If any of you know Minneapolis, you might recall that this is a very busy highway and a horrible way to die... but an effective one for that matter)

Obviously it was her OWN parents' fault for not doing anything, but it is also society's fault as well for looking the other way ("it's not my kid") and if you let your kids "police" themselves, you have no control over what their thoughts are and you have no control over them. Turst me, this is the worst time to let us do this. Sure, you have to give us freedom, but at this age (senior year of high school) your own morals get screwed up and you never "really" know what to think, and you often end up doing things you truely didn't want to do, because you "knew" it was bad. It is EXACTLY why I have dozens of friends who are so screwed up from drugs that one of them was shot from a drug deal gone bad in 8th grade and I don't know how many of the others are dead or still alive... God forbid they still be alive. And to top it off, none of their parents care anymore because "they tried their best" or what ever and now "their kids are old enough to take care of themselves". It is not a great feeling when you go for your normal bike ride around the lake and you see missing person signs for some of your friends that have run away from home and have now moved on to serious drugs such as herion, cocaine, and crystal meth. (this is all by freshmen year) It is also hard to deal with waking up to a dead guy on your lawn, and watching a drunk driver try to run over your little brother when you are 7. I am just trying to say that things happen in our lives every day and it is often hard to deal with it ourselves. You need to make sure you are there to help us.

I have been fortunate enough to never have become addicted to drugs or alcohol, but it is very serious in that if you let your kids "police" themselves and they try them just once, it is very rare they won't try it again. And it isn't just a peer pressure thing. If a peer knows you don't do it, they won't ask you to. It is more a thing that "everybody else is doing it, and I'm leaving myself out".

Please take more care of your kids. I know you are all good parents, and those that aren't yet will be, but you can't give your kids too much freedom until you know they can really make their own decisions without letting their minds interfer with their own judgement. I have a friend in my class who already has a DWI, but that is also our (and by our I mean his peers) fault. Adolesence and high school are very fragil times and the high pressure atmoshere from school only makes it worse. Now I really know how this affects you as I have taken all the Advanced Placement classes possible and take class at the college down the street, and I am still just a senior in high school. Pressure from school, parents and society to do well is very hard to deal with no matter how strong you are. I just took a call a few hours ago for my brother who is just 14 that his really good friend from preschool (whom they both had crushes on each other since about 2nd grade but just remained friends) just died in the hospital.

I know that the events of my childhood are worse then the Average Joe's, but it just goes to show that no matter how "grown" up you think your kids are, these are fragil times and we need your guidence, whether it be for college selection or moral support coming off of a drug addiction, or what ever. It isn't just a matter of taking your medication, because unless you force it down your kids' throat, they won't take it if they truely believe they don't have to. All kids are strong, but this is a tough day and age and no teenager is truely fit to handle it by themselves. I just pray that my friends who have no parental support will make it ok in the end. (I'm talking faith wise)

I'm really sorry if this got too deep but I am just trying to tell you that you seem to be playing this disscussion off pretty easily and that whether you see it or no, WE NEED YOUR HELP! Now I have had good parents so don't think that this view (and it is just a view) is the result of bad parenting, because I feel my parents were always there when I needed them. Please remember that even if your kids have a great childhood, which they all will, we are all only children once so please cheerish your children while they are still living in your house, because that can change at any given moment, whether it is time to go off to college or not. Another friend of mine died in a car accident in Jamaca just days before the one that committed suicide. Southwest High School in Minneapolis is now missing an additional two students, but they possibly don't care. Please don't be able to say you had regrets when rasing your kids. Take the precautions to ensure they are safe but without stifiling them. You say we need to use your judgement as our examples, but really please look at how your parents raised you, and decide if you should follow their example, because if it worked for you, it will work for your kids. I have to go now because even though the high school doesn't have class tomorrow, I still have my college classes tomorrow morning, and "time waits for no man" [one]... Again I am sorry if this is too deep but I have many regrets from my childhood and now I go off to college (for real this time) in only 9 months and two weeks and there is still a lot I must do, and I have a lot of loose ends to tie, and I am just trying to give you guys the kids' view of this matter. Growing up now is a lot different from when you grew up. Maybe this is all just a reaction to the death of my brother's good friend a few hours ago, or maybe I am just over-reacting (hey--that's YOUR job!)... but all this stuff I just took the time out of my early morning to tell you about is no bull sh_t. (And late nights like this is normal for me--I just don't have a lot of work for tomorrow since the high school doesn't have class)

Forgive me if I am out of control right now...I'm am basically just blowing off steam.. but this just goes to show that I am well-intentioned but can't make all of my own decisions right now... or maybe it is just a reaction to the stress... I should probably do something about that.

Thankyou for your time, I realize (and am sorry) that this got a little long... if anybody is still left... and yes, the people have come out of the woodwork on this one...

Mike.
 

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Hi Mike.

That was a gripping post. You might find that a lot of people know "exactly" the types of emotions you are going through. I don't say know exactly how you feel, because how the hell could I? I have had High School friends die because of drinking and driving, other friends shot (High School in Miami '84 - '86), raped, addicted, and a very good friend "attempt" suicide my first year of college.

Why did none of this happen to me, though, or to you for that matter? It had nothing to do with "fortune" or good luck. It is because our parents instilled a "seed" of morality, but also fostered us to use our minds and practice common sense. We, ultimately, are the ones who chose not to do something, or in my case, to try things that I knew I shouldn't, but I was going to try them anyway, understanding that I was doing wrong. That is the key difference to "forcing" your kids to doing something, and allowing them to use their brains to figure it out.

At no point did I believe that Mulder did not have any rules, or means of enforcing them, as I did not try to make others perceive that I had "hippy" views on raising children. I am a strict disciplinarian, that my wife has accused of being too tough. These are on matters that are important, like teaching your kids not to touch the pretty fire! The easiest method for me would be to let my child burn herself, because she would never forget that pain, and would never do it again. I haven't the heart to stand by while she immolates herself, though! I will raise my voice, grab her, and give that pretty hand a slap every time she reaches for the stove, though!

I will, I hope, instill the same "seeds" of morality and a sense of what is right and wrong in her that my mom did with me. I will insist that she uses her brain though, as my mom also insisted. I do not want a middle age woman living with me in my old age, because she never learned enough about herself to move out!

I do not mean to belittle your pain by not addressing some of the issues that you have raised. I think you are a very grown up young man (BTW you're not a kid, those are just young goats anyway;)) and wish you the best in college.

Remember though, you have to attend classes as well! I remember my first 1 1/2 years of college as the time I did nothing but play Roleplaying games at all times, drink, and sometimes attended classes.
 

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Well, Randy, thank you for your post.

I agree with you about Mulder... I didn't mean to make it seem like I was saying he had no rules, but it was just that it seemed like he has told his daughters his rules once, and now at their young age he is letting them enforce those rules themselves, and I know from experience it is sometimes hard to disscern right from wrong, even though I know better. As to your life in Dublin, I think it is better to be a little strict then to let your daughter learn from experience and burn herself (usually life-long scars are associated with it) so I think your wife is being a little hard on you. At that age she needs to be told what to do and be able to turst her father on what to do and not do. And I do know that there are many other people who know how I feel. There are also a lot who have had it worse than me.

There are other things making my emotions worse, like thinking of a friend of mine (a junior in h.s.) who lost his father last Thursday to a stroke, and I think last night things were just overwhelming and it seemed you guys weren't taking the matter you were talking about all to seriously (as it is a fairly serious matter)... but maybe you were, and through my mind last night (as I wasn't myself) I didn't see it. There are just things like I wish my parents emphasized grades when I was younger so I would have cared freshmen year, and my bad grades of that one year wouldn't be bringing down all of my scholarship money for college. If my parents had (and this is one of the only things I wish they did differently) set up a system of punishment (slight) and harped on me about grades like they do to my sister, then freshmen year I would have cared just a little and kept a 4.0 to this day, which would solve a lot of my scholarship problems.

I didn't mean to let things take off so much last night, but I was only trying to show you from a "young man's" point of view, it seems you guys needed to have more to do with your children's upbringing, as in guiding them into doing the right thing, and not letting them do it theirselves. Don't get into serious fights that damage your relationship with your kids (I'm sure you know this) because you never know how long you and your child will be there, and you can't take back things once one of you aren't there. I guess that was really all. I have settled down now so I think you are safe from being brought into another long and boring post about my troubles.

You are also right about why it is that we were never involved in any of that, and we ultimately are the ones who choose not to do something, and we are still here because our parent's had instilled a strong enough "seed" of morality and good enough common sense to stay away from all of that. I like your point about you doing something that you knew was wrong but still doing it anyway, understanding that it was wrong. As long as you can control yourself, there really isn't anything wrong with that, it just is something that it is hard to do. I just maybe went a little overboard last night, but I still dissagree with the web site in which this discussion started.

Thankyou for your thoughts, and by the way, I haven't missed a day of school for anything since about fifth grade (other than school related things--not even for illnesses) and that isn't going to change in college, and I haven't yet missed a day of college class.

[Edit: P.S. I wonder if Chris has anything thought provoking to add... now that it has become a "deep thoughts" thread. I also feel better that I now have the "luck of the Irish" on my side!]
 
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