[lighthouse]

In the late 1980s I spent a weekend in a place called Benwell in the west end of Newcastle (NE England). It's an area recognised by many in relevant organisations as one of the toughest neighbourhoods in the UK. Because I went up there with a friendly demeanour I was made to feel very welcome and had a really enjoyable time. If I had gone up there with an 'attitude' , and/or been judgemental the minute I got off the bus, concidering the sort of place it is, I would probably have lasted about 5 minutes - because the 'attitude' I'd have got back would have been infinately more - erm - 'up front' than anything I'd have been able to carry off. That was 16 years ago, and I sometimes wonder if these days it's possible to be able to do things like that, and does a friendly approach evoke the same, or are we becoming cynical to all that?

Is the world generally becoming an increasingly aggressive place, where competition is all, and being friendly towards people sometimes isn't enough. Is the whole notion of friendliness seen as a strength or a weakness to be exploited these days? People have to work longer hours in the increasingly competitive work place, to pay ever higher mortgages and a bewildering array of credit agreements, and you wonder what sort of effect that's having on societies as a whole, and how societies interact with each other. We live in a high octane culture where the simple day to day use of words can be taken and twisted totally out of common sense parlance by people who seem on a mission to cripple the basis of any peaceful coexistance - spoken communication.

Is this the Neobrutalism, and is it really possible to "Give peace a chance" in the 'get one over on someone else' culture - or are we just trying to grow flowers on a motorway?

 

[oldie]

Nice meaningful post :up: deserving much debate :up:

Regards - Oldie

 

[bassetman]

Reminds me of the old saying, "What if they gave a war and no one showed up?"

 

[Paquadez]

A most interesting post, lighthouse.

I will provide my take on this situation, from he UK perspective.

I use the plural for convenience: I do not include myself and my readers!

I believe that as a nation, we have lost the plot.

We have become selfish, self-centred and totally self-focused.

People are concerned with their own material possessions, to the exclusion of almost any other emotions.

Aided by the insanity of the media, men and women have confused their roles and natural feelings.

Life is all one big apparent competition: however, as we know, life is a zero sum game.

The majority, are focused on the drivelling puke of soap operas and sitcoms.

The majority are ill-informed and politically naive.

Our society has reached the tragic apogee, where even children of 3 and 4 are marketing targets.

Women in the street, blind drunk and out of control is considered "A bit of a larf" and "Having a good time!"

We have become so inured to human suffering, mainly owing to over-exposure of this in the media, that we accept murder, maiming and violent crime as an everyday occurence.

Paq

 

[AlbertB]

ditto!

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Nicely said Paq

I have thought for some time now there are two leading problems here in America: Ignorance, and the breakdown of the family.

Ignorance - It is no small tragedy that most Americans are more interested in the politics of the "Survivor" show, and the performance of an "American Idol", than real politics and the performance of their elected leaders.
Couple that with the bias, and overly politically correct news media, and the result is the average American does not even know who their Congress representative is, let alone what they are doing.
Breakdown of the family: - The fact that in some inner city minority areas, as much as 78% of children are born out of wedlock, with no fathers.
Because of that 40% of all violent crimes in America ANYWHERE in America are caused by 3% of the population - young black men.

We seem to look right past the issues of Fathers abandoning their children, and moving 100's of miles away. They pay support, but are completely absent in their child's lives.

My own nephew at age 12, in the 7th grade with a B average, that same year his father, my brother, divorced an moved to Chicago, which is 5 hours from where I live.
By age 16, he quit school, was arrested twice, took drugs for behavior problems, was abusive verbally to his siblings, simply out of control.
This happens everywhere, in every town throughout America, yet no one looks down on a father that has done it.

 

[Paquadez]

Thanks, Iam, and BTW welcome to TSG.

A sad so sad story, you post, yet so typical these days, I fear.

My own belief is that if we take the weighty decision to procreate, then we have to adopt the responsibilities: for life!

Not like a Nintendo: we cannot take the batteries out and leave it in the cupboard, 'cos we're bored!

My heart goes out to your nephew: it is NOT his fault. It is the fault of sorry to say, dysfunctional parenting.

But, at the end of the day, the kid suffers due to his parent's selfishness.

Paq

 

[iamwhatiseem]

It is extremely sad Paq.
I have given 3 public speeches on this very subject, as well a one on inter-porn's effect on pre-adolescent boys that are exposed to it.

I could fill a page on the devastating statistics.

I spent my teen years in the late 70's, and early 80's. The main problem then, was, as a bad side affect of feminism, we were all taught men and women are the same on every level. This bred a generation of young people who had no clue how to treat the opposite sex.
This, and the bane of the 80's, the "me" generation - also instilled selfishness, a lack of self-sacrifice, and the general feeling that as long as YOU are happy everything is right in the world.

Just take a look at popular shows of the 90's (when the teen's of the 80's grew up) Seinfeld, Friends, Cheers - all had self-centered, childless, and immature adults as the main characters.

Then we all got married, found out it was hard work, then really hard work when kids came along, now the feeling of not being "happy" and " I can't be me" kicks in, and we all excuse ourselves from our responsibilities, after all society says it's not only OK, but you SHOULD do this, so YOU can be "HAPPY"

 

[oldie]

There are societies still remaining where the problems you highlight are virtually non existent. Malta is just one example of how family life should be. Where the older one becomes the more respect is shown by ones juniors. By sons, daughters and grandchildren. Shades of Godfather maybe, never the less I say :up:

Here in Gozo we have just one hospital. The general wards, surgical or medical are well above the European average regarding care. The geriatric ward however is way way above that of the UK. More staff intensive, better food choice etc

I hear rumour that more than one US state is considering fixed term marriages and "Till death do us part" will be dropped from the Christian marriage vows

I therefore thee wed for a term not exceeding five years

ciao ciao - Oldie

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Too bad this thread isn't getting more traffic...

 

[cnimbus]

Originally posted by lighthouse:
In the late 1980s I spent a weekend in a place called Benwell in the west end of Newcastle (NE England). It's an area recognised by many in relevant organisations as one of the toughest neighbourhoods in the UK. Because I went up there with a friendly demeanour I was made to feel very welcome and had a really enjoyable time. If I had gone up there with an 'attitude' , and/or been judgemental the minute I got off the bus, concidering the sort of place it is, I would probably have lasted about 5 minutes - because the 'attitude' I'd have got back would have been infinately more - erm - 'up front' than anything I'd have been able to carry off. That was 16 years ago, and I sometimes wonder if these days it's possible to be able to do things like that, and does a friendly approach evoke the same, or are we becoming cynical to all that?

Is the world generally becoming an increasingly aggressive place, where competition is all, and being friendly towards people sometimes isn't enough. Is the whole notion of friendliness seen as a strength or a weakness to be exploited these days? People have to work longer hours in the increasingly competitive work place, to pay ever higher mortgages and a bewildering array of credit agreements, and you wonder what sort of effect that's having on societies as a whole, and how societies interact with each other. We live in a high octane culture where the simple day to day use of words can be taken and twisted totally out of common sense parlance by people who seem on a mission to cripple the basis of any peaceful coexistance - spoken communication.

Is this the Neobrutalism, and is it really possible to "Give peace a chance" in the 'get one over on someone else' culture - or are we just trying to grow flowers on a motorway?

It depends on where you are at, when you are there, and whether or not the people you meet have an attitude problem. Your own behavior will usually determine how you are treated, but not always. People as a whole seem to be a lot more willing to screw over others nowadays, though. My personal observation is that this does not apply equally in all places.

The where: Folks in rural areas often seem to generally be a lot more friendly than those in uban areas, I'm not sure why. People in nearly all the Midwestern US are very friendly, those in Boston and the San Francisco bay area are decidedly unfriendly overall. The demeanor of people in different countries also varies, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Mostly for the better, I think.

The when: Anyone entering an area when there are unusually high tensions will find it rather unhospitable. People might behave in a much more civil manner at other times. Areas that are safe during the day may become dangerous at night. People all across America were more accomodating and supportive of each other following the 9/11 attacks than at other times. For some reason, this seems to happen a lot during disasters.

The world does seem like it is becoming a more agressive, cutthroat, hostile place. Part of the problem may be that individuals adopt that outlook and behavior as a survival mechanism, although they find it distasteful. They believe there are few who see things the same way, when, in reality, the opposite is true. As far as friendliness being a weakness to be exploited - being friendly and treating others well does not require people to be fools. Fools will be exploited sooner or later no matter what, just as in times past.

Of course, all these statements are based on my point of view. Others may see it quite differently.

 

[Wino]

Whew!! and I thought I was a pessimist!! I find the world no different today than past - just everyone has life communicated to them so much better and easier with the internet, 15 or 24/7/365 news channels, and forums like this. Take all these away and people would be the less for it - then all they would do is listen to and hang around with friends that think like them and may be have a local newspaper's biased view of worldly happenings.

 

[Paquadez]

Wino

I can only therefore pre-suppose, that your part of the Lone Star State must be in a Time-Warp!

I do not, I promise you, imagine the backwards progress of UK society.

I have , in the past, been involved on formal Urban Regeneration Programmes.

Oldie and I have agreed, previously, that the reason people like he and I leave or are in process of leaving the UK, is simply because of its social and economic problems.

Funny, that as Mrs P and I spent much time in France, last year, finalising our research, ALL of the people we met from the UK, seeking property were of a similar type, background, upbringing and shared behavioural characteristics, too.

So, obviously its us that has the problem and we're the ones who are socially dysfunctional!

Yet, we don't go around, puking up our guts in the street from binge drinking: vandalising property: swearing and shouting at others in the street; sit on kerbs like vagrants; throw litter evrywhere; spit on the sidewalk; urinate in public; pick fights 'cos we're rat-arsed; abuse the police; do drugs; enjoy totally irresponsible sex; have children and then desert them and leave it to the taxpayer to pick up the tab.

So perhaps it's not us, after all!



Paq

 

[GoneForNow]

Originally posted by Paquadez:
enjoy totally irresponsible sex

1. Could you please expand on that concept.
2. Can the sex be responsible totally?
3. Would it be just as irresponsible if they didn't enjoy it?
4. Does this only apply to sex?



Just having a little fun Paq!

 

[Paquadez]

Originally posted by gbrumb:
1. Could you please expand on that concept.
2. Can the sex be responsible totally?
3. Would it be just as irresponsible if they didn't enjoy it?
4. Does this only apply to sex?



Just having a little fun Paq!

Happy to GB!

1. Don't know who or what they are doing it with!

2. Of course not: otherswise it would be boring!

3. No: it would be even MORE irresponsible!

4. Depends on your personal mores and perspectives!

All reminds me of a wonderful gag I heard recently.

This old gaffer is sitting on a park bench when a young Goth guy, with full body piercing, leather everything and hair that is all shades of the color spectrum sits next to him.

The gaffer cannot take his eyes of the kid!

After ten minutes, or so, the Goth says "What's the trouble old man: didn't you ever have any fun when you were young? Didn't you ever do anything outrageous?

After cogitating for a couple of minutes, the gaffer replies; "Sure, Son, I did. In fact when I was about your age, I made mad passionate love with a parrot!

My problem is, that I'm thinking, "Hell! This kid may well be my son!"

Paq

 

[oldie]

Having just returned from a break in the UK - where I was shocked to learn that the latest fad with young ladies is binge drinking getting completely stoned in the shortest possible time

Is there anything less lady like? Falling out of drinking holes F this F that, taking down their knickers and peeing on other peoples property

How much further down the antisocial road can British society travel before those responsible say " enough is enough "

These very same young British representatives now export this trend to our southern european friends - Spain - Greece etc - Young British diplomacy :down:

Oldie

 

[Paquadez]

I watched a very worrying documentary about this, recently, Bill.

Actual film of police trying to contain the problems.

The behaviour of the "girls" in particular was unreal!

Saddens me: Ah well, France beckons, soon................

Paq

 

[lighthouse]

The problem is, this is the sort of thing that Third world people see when they come here - getting behind the glossy images beamed at them to their home countries via Satellite TV. The simple fact that they are in Britain for whatever reason (College, work etc) might suggest that they are from influential families/positions in their own societies, and you do ask what impression they take home with them. Britain has become a much more aggressive country - certainly over the last 10 years - a lot of which is rooted in the 80s - and there are some pretty unpleasant characteristics about our society that have become quite mainstream these days. Sometimes I think the west needs to look at some aspects of its own, less than perfect, culture before telling others how to live.
20 minutes walk away from the oval office is one of the most poverty stricken and violent urban ghettos in the world, and London has plenty of - erm - 'Non touristy' places a short tube ride away from Downing street. When these people stay here they find out about all this - and the associated problems arising from it all - so what do they say to the people back home after they return? If they're well placed in their own societies their input amongst their people is going to be quite influential. Can we totally blame them for being wary of any western foriegn policy intentions as they see the - sometimes - quite serious iniquities and flaws inherrent in the societies behind all the MTV glamour and edited highlights of western life? Even our own commissioner for racial equality - Trevor Phillips - said yesterday that our ethnic minorities should "integrate with the mainstream", which sends worrying signals to those concerned that there is a push towards a sort of homogenisation, and looking at some of the excesses found in the dominant culture, what do you suppose they think we want to export to them? Have we also reached that point where the whole "me" generation way has become somehow unsustainable, and it's now running up against things in the world that simply won't be entertained by it?

 

[lighthouse]

PS: What, for example, do they think of football hooliganism, or the virtual 'No go' areas some of our city centres become on a friday and saturday night because of all the alcohol related violence? How many of them experience racism during their day to day lives here, and how does that travel on the plane home? Yeah - there are a lot of really cool people who make them feel very welcome, but there are also a lot who aren't! What do they make of the almost daily diatribes about assylum seekers in some of the press, done to such an intensity it HAS had an effect on how some people here regard foriegners. Does this do anything positive in the promotion of trust? I read and remember the stuff of tolerance (Pauline Cuttings book for example, the friendly good naturedness going on in the west during the Lebanese hostage crisis of the late 80s etc) from only a few years ago, and it all seems like a lifetime away. It's like, what happened to the world in the interim?

Ok! - we might get a lot of diplomacy and statements by Politicians etc, but these are the real experiences, of the real, people, who have lived on the cultural frontline of the real UK/West.................And this is the stuff they take back with them!!!

"The battle is getting harder - No one can guide us - Armagideon time!" (Joe Strummer - 1979)

 

[LANMaster]

I think Wino is correct that people haven't really become more cynical.

I think it is ALL about how you were raised and how you raise your own children.

My folks taught me to be respectful ALWAYS off the start, and to look at life through a series of opportunities that will either make you a liked person or one who is looked at indifferently or one who is disliked COMPLETELY BASED ON ATTITUDE.

This does not mean that one should go around kissing bunnz all day long or acting overly confident or boastful. Instead the real key is to come across thoughtful and genuinely interested in the feelings which others hold. With that kind of attitude, people feel at ease and are much more willing to explain their thoughts to you accurately rather than telling you what you want to hear.

Confidence is important, but try to never BS your way through an issue. People can see right through BS.

Honesty is critical. Say what you believe, and believe what you say. Do not hold back an apology when you are wrong. And if you make an apology, (this is where I usually blow it) don't try to explain away the mistake. Accept the fact that you were wrong and be genuine and humble.

Golden rule. Treat others in a manner which you would like to be treated.

If all that fails a right cross can be very affective.