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The California Governor has come up with a unique and original idea to stop, in theory, politicos from insuring their continued re-election. The proposal cuts both ways as to Democrats and Republicans. I believe Rep will back me up when I say that redistricting can cause unbelievable political strife. So before this thread gets highjacked what are your thoughts? (I know the subject matter isn't sexy but it has the opportunity to affect you more then you realize. ;) )

Can Arnold help to restore true democracy?
Steve Chapman

11 January 2005
The Baltimore Sun

Copyright 2005, The Baltimore Sun. All Rights Reserved.
CHICAGO
CHICAGO - Arnold Schwarzenegger probably will never get to be president, but he may be able to do something far more ambitious, difficult and worthwhile: restore a measure of democracy to our democracy.
In his State of the State address Wednesday, the California governor said he would convene the legislature to address several issues - one of them being the way the legislators hang on to their jobs. California draws congressional and legislative districts the way most states do, with those in power rigging things to stay in power. They allocate voters and geographic areas in such a way as to ensure that whoever won the last time will win the next time, and the next.
This system produces bizarre maps that look like a free-for-all in a lobster tank. But to established officeholders, beauty is as beauty does. In the 2004 elections, Mr. Schwarzenegger noted, "153 of California's congressional and legislative seats were up in the last election and not one - I repeat, not one - changed parties." For incumbent legislators, that's the next best thing to guaranteed life tenure.
But they will have to learn to deal with uncertainty if Mr. Schwarzenegger has his way. He wants to turn the task of setting district boundaries over to an independent panel of retired judges, who would not have a powerful incentive to prevent competitive elections. "They can be drawn fair and honest - district lines that make politicians of both parties accountable to the people," he declared.
His idea addresses a problem that extends far beyond the Golden State. In most of the country, naked partisan gerrymandering is as American as three-card monte. In recent years, the average congressional election has been completely devoid of suspense. In the 2004 elections for the U.S. House of Representatives, only seven incumbent members lost their re-election bids. That was down from eight in 2002.
Patrick Basham of the Cato Institute in Washington says this is the fourth consecutive election in which the incumbent success rate was at least 98 percent. In 2004, of the 435 seats in the House, only 13 shifted from one party to the other - which works out to 3 percent.
Even close elections are rare. In 2004, 95 percent of all victors won by more than 10 percentage points, and 83 percent won by more than 20 percent. Heck, even contested elections are getting harder to find. In 2002, 81 House incumbents lacked an opponent in the general election.
Surveying the campaign in October 2002, The Economist magazine of Britain noted that only about 20 House elections in this broad land could be called competitive. "In any other evenly divided country's lower house, one in every five members of parliament, deputies or assemblymen would be a nervous wreck by this stage," it noted, but "in America, only one in 20 congressmen needs to think about an alternative career."
If you object because your congressional representative votes the wrong way on tax cuts or Iraq, you can always try to vote him out of office. But if you object because it's virtually impossible to vote him out of office, what are you supposed to do? In most places, voting against an incumbent lawmaker is about as effective as petitioning the moon to postpone high tide.
That's why Mr. Schwarzenegger's interest in the subject holds so much promise. If he decides to launch a crusade, he could force the legislators to give up their chokehold on power. If they refuse, thanks to California's liberal rules on ballot initiatives, he could lead a petition drive to hold a referendum and let the voters decide. Previous efforts on that front have fallen short. But they didn't have one of the most dynamic populists in the country hoisting their banner.
Critics doubt the governor's motives, since any change is likely to help his fellow Republicans, who are in the minority in Sacramento. But the truth is that GOP officeholders would be just as threatened by the change as Democrats. Mr. Schwarzenegger should find it easy to cast the issue as a different kind of partisan fight: the incumbent party against the people. And success in California could ignite a nationwide movement.
Voters can see what Mr. Schwarzenegger sees, which is that there's something wrong when elected representatives are immune to mere ballots. Unless efforts like this one prevail, we'll wake up one morning to find that our elections have become a Schwarzenegger movie: True Lies.
 

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It's a good idea. My concern is actually finding a group of judges less partisan than the politicians they would be replacing to make the districting decisions. I'd also follow this closely with repealing franking priveleges, they have always seemed to provide far to great an advantage to the incumbent (not to mention that I wouldn't mind getting a few dozen fewer mailers each election cycle!).
 

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gbrumb said:
The California Governor has come up with a unique and original idea to stop, in theory, politicos from insuring their continued re-election. The proposal cuts both ways as to Democrats and Republicans. I believe Rep will back me up when I say that redistricting can cause unbelievable political strife. So before this thread gets highjacked what are your thoughts? (I know the subject matter isn't sexy but it has the opportunity to affect you more then you realize. ;) )

Can Arnold help to restore true democracy?
Steve Chapman

11 January 2005
The Baltimore Sun

This is precisely what Delay did in Texas----I say a pox on all their houses-!
Arnold is right on this one.
Copyright 2005, The Baltimore Sun. All Rights Reserved.
CHICAGO
CHICAGO - Arnold Schwarzenegger probably will never get to be president, but he may be able to do something far more ambitious, difficult and worthwhile: restore a measure of democracy to our democracy.
In his State of the State address Wednesday, the California governor said he would convene the legislature to address several issues - one of them being the way the legislators hang on to their jobs. California draws congressional and legislative districts the way most states do, with those in power rigging things to stay in power. They allocate voters and geographic areas in such a way as to ensure that whoever won the last time will win the next time, and the next.
This system produces bizarre maps that look like a free-for-all in a lobster tank. But to established officeholders, beauty is as beauty does. In the 2004 elections, Mr. Schwarzenegger noted, "153 of California's congressional and legislative seats were up in the last election and not one - I repeat, not one - changed parties." For incumbent legislators, that's the next best thing to guaranteed life tenure.
But they will have to learn to deal with uncertainty if Mr. Schwarzenegger has his way. He wants to turn the task of setting district boundaries over to an independent panel of retired judges, who would not have a powerful incentive to prevent competitive elections. "They can be drawn fair and honest - district lines that make politicians of both parties accountable to the people," he declared.
His idea addresses a problem that extends far beyond the Golden State. In most of the country, naked partisan gerrymandering is as American as three-card monte. In recent years, the average congressional election has been completely devoid of suspense. In the 2004 elections for the U.S. House of Representatives, only seven incumbent members lost their re-election bids. That was down from eight in 2002.
Patrick Basham of the Cato Institute in Washington says this is the fourth consecutive election in which the incumbent success rate was at least 98 percent. In 2004, of the 435 seats in the House, only 13 shifted from one party to the other - which works out to 3 percent.
Even close elections are rare. In 2004, 95 percent of all victors won by more than 10 percentage points, and 83 percent won by more than 20 percent. Heck, even contested elections are getting harder to find. In 2002, 81 House incumbents lacked an opponent in the general election.
Surveying the campaign in October 2002, The Economist magazine of Britain noted that only about 20 House elections in this broad land could be called competitive. "In any other evenly divided country's lower house, one in every five members of parliament, deputies or assemblymen would be a nervous wreck by this stage," it noted, but "in America, only one in 20 congressmen needs to think about an alternative career."
If you object because your congressional representative votes the wrong way on tax cuts or Iraq, you can always try to vote him out of office. But if you object because it's virtually impossible to vote him out of office, what are you supposed to do? In most places, voting against an incumbent lawmaker is about as effective as petitioning the moon to postpone high tide.
That's why Mr. Schwarzenegger's interest in the subject holds so much promise. If he decides to launch a crusade, he could force the legislators to give up their chokehold on power. If they refuse, thanks to California's liberal rules on ballot initiatives, he could lead a petition drive to hold a referendum and let the voters decide. Previous efforts on that front have fallen short. But they didn't have one of the most dynamic populists in the country hoisting their banner.
Critics doubt the governor's motives, since any change is likely to help his fellow Republicans, who are in the minority in Sacramento. But the truth is that GOP officeholders would be just as threatened by the change as Democrats. Mr. Schwarzenegger should find it easy to cast the issue as a different kind of partisan fight: the incumbent party against the people. And success in California could ignite a nationwide movement.
Voters can see what Mr. Schwarzenegger sees, which is that there's something wrong when elected representatives are immune to mere ballots. Unless efforts like this one prevail, we'll wake up one morning to find that our elections have become a Schwarzenegger movie: True Lies.
 

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Gerrymandering is gerrymandering regardless who does it - judges or pols. The only fair way is to take the number of reps allowed for a state, divide that into number of counties, group counties all ajoining to match the number found, declare it a congressional district and move on. I wouldn't trust a judge, active or retired, anymore than I would a pol. What transpired in Texas last year was a travisty of justice and took gerrymandering to the utmost height of political corruption and cynicism. :down: :mad:
 

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It got stuck at the top of the---a one liner that sums it up in my usual brilliant fashion:

This is precisely what Delay did in Texas----I say a pox on all their houses-!
 

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linskyjack said:
It got stuck at the top of the---a one liner that sums it up in my usual brilliant fashion:

This is precisely what Delay did in Texas----I say a pox on all their houses-!
Amen!! Hope DeLay will eventually enjoy his stay in Danbury Fed Prison - he is going down! :up:
 

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Maybe I have forgotten my ballot, but I could choose all of the Senators and Reps sent to DC to represent Arizona, the only qualification was that I live in Arizona.


Changing my district does not alter as to wether I can keep Sen. McCain (for example)

It sounds to me like this is just another attempt to remove voter apathy without addressing voter apathy. I mean, how many people can name thier state reps? Not the ones that go to DC, but the ones that go to the state capital and work on state laws. I can only name one, and he isn't even in my state! (Hi Rep :) ) However, I take my own responsibility on this. If the guy (or gal) representing my district is no good and got to keep thier job, thats my fault for not really caring, not because of how the map is drawn.

The best term limit is the ballot. These are the races where there is no electoral college. Where it really is a most votes wins, no ifs ands or buts. If a near all democrat district keeps picking a dem, why would that shock anyone? Why divide that up? What if the political demographic changes again? Redraw? Shall we make political affiliation a criteria for living in a particular area to prevent imbalance? All sounds strange to me....
 

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Wino said:
Gerrymandering is gerrymandering regardless who does it - judges or pols. The only fair way is to take the number of reps allowed for a state, divide that into number of counties, group counties all ajoining to match the number found, declare it a congressional district and move on. I wouldn't trust a judge, active or retired, anymore than I would a pol. What transpired in Texas last year was a travisty of justice and took gerrymandering to the utmost height of political corruption and cynicism. :down: :mad:
Would it not be more fair to draw the districts based on population? For example....Texas has 32 Representatives in DC. We have 254 counties. That comes out to roughly 8 counties per representative. So if you're in SA, your district would probably consist of Bexar County and its 7 adjacent counties (yes I counted!). That's got to be around 4 million people. So is that fair to you to have one representative with 4 million in his constituency while a rep from out in the Big Bend area can have El Paso (half a million) plus the four people that live in Brewster County?

I agree with Arnie that the politicians should not be allowed to draw their own district lines (or give themselves raises, IMNHO). And I understand what someone said upthread about the judges being more partisan than the politicians :eek: but is there anyone who ISN'T partisan that could do this job? If not the retired judges....than who?
 

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DiSaidSo said:
Would it not be more fair to draw the districts based on population? For example....Texas has 32 Representatives in DC. We have 254 counties. That comes out to roughly 8 counties per representative. So if you're in SA, your district would probably consist of Bexar County and its 7 adjacent counties (yes I counted!). That's got to be around 4 million people. So is that fair to you to have one representative with 4 million in his constituency while a rep from out in the Big Bend area can have El Paso (half a million) plus the four people that live in Brewster County?

I agree with Arnie that the politicians should not be allowed to draw their own district lines (or give themselves raises, IMNHO). And I understand what someone said upthread about the judges being more partisan than the politicians :eek: but is there anyone who ISN'T partisan that could do this job? If not the retired judges....than who?
It, IMHO, would be better my way than your way. What's good for SATX isn't necessarily good for Big Bend/El Paso/Presido/Alpine, etc. Frankly would be more responsible and precise representation for grouped counties. No more lines drawn that cover small strips of counties from north to the tip of So. Texas - with such diverse needs the richest, greediest and loudest sqeakers get all the goodies. As it is now, it's as bad as the electoral college used to select a president. My way eliminates any political party from setting the rules - you will NEVER find unbiased members to determine congressional districts.
1) no gerrymandering
2) small populations would be fairly represented and would be equal in congress.
3) anything is better than what we have now

Arnie's idea isn't bad, but it does not solve the problem, but still for a Democrate in wolfs clothing, he ain't all that bad! :eek:

BTW, I'm making great progress in my 'Fat Bag' addiction - just this past week I was able to enter a Hooters without drooling (too much)!! :D
 

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Wino said:
It, IMHO, would be better my way than your way. What's good for SATX isn't necessarily good for Big Bend/El Paso/Presido/Alpine, etc. Frankly would be more responsible and precise representation for grouped counties. No more lines drawn that cover small strips of counties from north to the tip of So. Texas - with such diverse needs the richest, greediest and loudest sqeakers get all the goodies. As it is now, it's as bad as the electoral college used to select a president. My way eliminates any political party from setting the rules - you will NEVER find unbiased members to determine congressional districts.
1) no gerrymandering
2) small populations would be fairly represented and would be equal in congress.
3) anything is better than what we have now

Arnie's idea isn't bad, but it does not solve the problem, but still for a Democrate in wolfs clothing, he ain't all that bad! :eek:
Hm, maybe you misunderstood what I meant or maybe I didn't convey it well. If my idea were to take hold, in my example Bexar County would probably be its own district (about 1.5 million, I'm guessing) and then El Paso County, Hudspeth, Culberson, Jeff Davis, Presidio, Brewster would be their own district (all Big Bend counties and sparsely populated). You see, the population centers would be the ones getting "robbed" because there would only be one rep to their district for all of the myriad issues.

Looks like we agree on what we hate, we just have different ideas on how to fix it. :up: Maybe a good compromise of our ideas would be to go by census population stats and group districts by adjacent counties, not necessarily based on how many counties, but population (kinda the way they do area codes). So maybe Bexar, Comal and Kendall would be one district and then Medina, Frio, Altascosa, Wilson, and Guadalupe would be another. :D It's fun to say Guadalupe. Gwa-da-LOOP-ay!

Wino said:
BTW, I'm making great progress in my 'Fat Bag' addiction - just this past week I was able to enter a Hooters without drooling (too much)!! :D
I don't know if I'm proud or weirded out. LOL :up: :D
 

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DiSaidSo said:
Hm, maybe you misunderstood what I meant or maybe I didn't convey it well. If my idea were to take hold, in my example Bexar County would probably be its own district (about 1.5 million, I'm guessing) and then El Paso County, Hudspeth, Culberson, Jeff Davis, Presidio, Brewster would be their own district (all Big Bend counties and sparsely populated). You see, the population centers would be the ones getting "robbed" because there would only be one rep to their district for all of the myriad issues.

Looks like we agree on what we hate, we just have different ideas on how to fix it. :up: Maybe a good compromise of our ideas would be to go by census population stats and group districts by adjacent counties, not necessarily based on how many counties, but population (kinda the way they do area codes). So maybe Bexar, Comal and Kendall would be one district and then Medina, Frio, Altascosa, Wilson, and Guadalupe would be another. :D It's fun to say Guadalupe. Gwa-da-LOOP-ay!

I don't know if I'm proud or weirded out. LOL :up: :D
I was both!! :D

I could live with your plan, although I'm not crazy about what the population is in any group of counties. My point being that the sparsely populated get crap rammed down their throat by the big populated areas and their needs are different. Your plan has too much equality and I'm looking more at actual needs.
 

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Wino said:
I was both!! :D

I could live with your plan, although I'm not crazy about what the population is in any group of counties. My point being that the sparsely populated get crap rammed down their throat by the big populated areas and their needs are different. Your plan has too much equality and I'm looking more at actual needs.
Well now. There's something I never thought I'd hear a Democrat say. :D

I think the problem here is...you can either cater to actual needs or you can make it simple. It's like pushing two positive ends of a magnet together. You can get darn close, but they're never gonna meet in the middle. What I am happy about is that SOMEONE has spoken up and said that the way things are done now positively suck and that something needs to change. :up:
 

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Wino said:
Gerrymandering is gerrymandering regardless who does it - judges or pols. The only fair way is to take the number of reps allowed for a state, divide that into number of counties, group counties all ajoining to match the number found, declare it a congressional district and move on. I wouldn't trust a judge, active or retired, anymore than I would a pol. What transpired in Texas last year was a travisty of justice and took gerrymandering to the utmost height of political corruption and cynicism. :down: :mad:
Not for me, Wino. :D :D :D :D
 

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Actually to make it the most fair and democratic, all Congressional seats would be put at-large. ;)
 

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DiSaidSo said:
Well now. There's something I never thought I'd hear a Democrat say. :D

I think the problem here is...you can either cater to actual needs or you can make it simple. It's like pushing two positive ends of a magnet together. You can get darn close, but they're never gonna meet in the middle. What I am happy about is that SOMEONE has spoken up and said that the way things are done now positively suck and that something needs to change. :up:
I'll go for the cater vs. the simple. Some one has brought it up, unfortunately it will die on the vine. I relate well to your magnet analogy - I used to be married. :p BTW, I'm not a Democrat - I just think the opposing side sux! :D
 

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Wino said:
I'll go for the cater vs. the simple. Some one has brought it up, unfortunately it will die on the vine. I relate well to your magnet analogy - I used to be married. :p BTW, I'm not a Democrat - I just think the opposing side sux! :D
Well, I'm not a Republican either because every time I take one of those goofy tests, I come out a Libertarian! :eek: Who'da thunk?

IK said:
Actually to make it the most fair and democratic, all Congressional seats would be put at-large.
So everyone in the State of Texas would have to research and vote for 32 separate elections? And 32 times the political ads! Oh my head! All that translates to: that's a dumb idea. :D Can't you see that Wino and I are ON TO SOMETHING HERE??? :cool:
 

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linskyjack said:
I say we end this sick system where politicians gerry mander and go to a parlimentary system--makes so much more sense.
Yes, let's abandon a stable, succesful government that has been in steady operation for over 220 years in favor of a system where the sitting government can be ousted if institutionalized special interests ("minority parties") are not kept pacified with bribes. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
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