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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Shamou's thread got my little gears going (thanks Ray!) about how feminism has changed women since it first sprouted in in the 60's.

First of all...everyone needs to know that I do NOT support the oppression of women in the work force, political arena or on the home front.

That being said, I believe that the feminist movement has really hurt society as a whole.

Would like to hear some opinions about the feminist movement by both sexes.

Ladies? What are the pros and cons of feminism?

Men? Same question to you.
 

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This is a great subject Val...I have opinions on both sides...Good and not so good...I will reflect on them for a while before I answer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Gabriel said:
This is a great subject Val...I have opinions on both sides...Good and not so good...I will reflect on them for a while before I answer.
good idea, Gabriel. I look forward to your reply. :) I dont dare blurt my opinions out at this point. I will take in some of the reactions before going "full-steam ahead" this time. I want to make sure I have the proper attitude to reply to those who are serious in their replies. :)

(gonna be snotty to the non-serious posters, of course! :p)
 

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valley said:
good idea, Gabriel. I look forward to your reply. :) I dont dare blurt my opinions out at this point. I will take in some of the reactions before going "full-steam ahead" this time. I want to make sure I have the proper attitude to reply to those who are serious in their replies. :)

(gonna be snotty to the non-serious posters, of course! :p)
I can "feel your pain"!:D
 

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the end of my "coming of age" years where during the birth of "woman's liberation".....being that age, of course, my focus was on the sexual liberation part...something that was talked about in feminist circles as being profound for both sexes....but as a guy in my late teens/early twenties....the only really profound change i noticed was in the way woman viewed themselves, their sexuality, and their bodies.

and it was great :up: ;) ...tho for deeper reasons than the obvious nudge-nudge part.

now that i'm older, with a 15 year old daughter, i feel my mind wanting to clamp shut on that part of "feminism"....but not really :eek:

what DOES disturb me is that "sexual freedom", one of the initiators of feminism, has continued its slide into younger and younger age groups....theoretically, the only end to the slide would be puberty, i suppose.

and this has brought with it outcrys of moral degredation and the push for family values....some of it just overreaction, in my view...an attempt to return to the "idyllic" pre feminist times, when roles were clearly defined, and parenting had a far more structured meaning, and traditional moral principles were more widely accepted as the standard operating system.

feminism questioned all of it, and continues to do so...and as you've pointed out, valley, some of the questions are good ones...equal pay and opprotunity for those women who desire to enter the work force....the admirable demand by woman to be able to speak about anything, anytime....the recognition of women as beings separate from the marriage unit, in terms of credit and other forms of self sufficency essential to freedom in this country.

all of it, the good and the bad, has made our society more "provocative"....something which only increases dissention and turmoil....and this dissention and turmoil, in my view, is a reflection of the fact that, somewhere within us, we the people just don't like all these changes....they create new unknowns and demand new rules....they require that we face our children and our spouses and our bosses in ways that we are not used to....
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
poochee said:
If you call expecting and demanding the same pay for the same job I am a Feminist.:up:

If you call abusing your body and soul by having affairs like many men do, I am not a Feminist.:down:

If you don't stand up for your rights, you won't get them.;)
greats pros and cons, Pooch. Thanks :)
 

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poochee said:
If you call expecting and demanding the same pay for the same job I am a Feminist.:up:
Providing the end results are the same there shouldn't be a problem. If a woman or man get a job due to filling a quota that's a problem.
poochee said:
If you call abusing your body and soul by having affairs like many men do, I am not a Feminist.:down:
You must really be a man hater poochee. What about all the women that have affairs? Lets not just single men out here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
iltos said:
now that i'm older, with a 15 year old daughter, i feel my mind wanting to clamp shut on that part of "feminism"....but not really :eek:
May I ask for a clearer explanation? Which portion of feminism do you agree with?

what DOES disturb me is that "sexual freedom", one of the initiators of feminism, has continued its slide into younger and younger age groups....theoretically, the only end to the slide would be puberty, i suppose.
agreed...this is why there is so much marketing towards pre-teens (and younger!) right now. Its heavily influenced by the feminist agenda, imo.

and this has brought with it outcrys of moral degredation and the push for family values....some of it just overreaction, in my view...an attempt to return to the "idyllic" pre feminist times, when roles were clearly defined, and parenting had a far more structured meaning, and traditional moral principles were more widely accepted as the standard operating system.
true. We will never go back to that...and i'm glad because there was a lot of ignorance and paranoia over certain subjects back then.

feminism questioned all of it, and continues to do so......the recognition of women as beings separate from the marriage unit
ah, there's a point of contention for me. The feminist movement not only recognizes women as separate from the marriage unit, but it portrays them as victims. It takes a dim view of women who by their own choice, want to be stay at home moms. They push the idea that a woman isnt a "real" woman unless she has it all...and claims that she can have it all without sacrificing a thing, which is false, imo.

I think its a dangerous illusion to present to young women.
 

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Wimpy369 said:
Providing the end results are the same there shouldn't be a problem. If a woman or man get a job due to filling a quota that's a problem.

You must really be a man hater poochee. What about all the women that have affairs? Lets not just single men out here.
Yes, it take two to have an affair. However, a woman has more to lose. She can get pregnant. Then she has to choose to have a baby, or an abortion. Abortion, IMO, is murder.

I was pointing out that Feminism encourages women to live like men.
 

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As I see it the original goals of the feminist movement in general, or the NOW in particular were equal treatment under the law, and equal treatment and opportunity and pay in the workplace.

In my view the original goals of feminism have mostly been achieved, but the leadership of feminism was long ago hyjacked by radicals with a lesbian, man hating agenda. The NOW has alienated much of it's original constituency.

I wish I had the time and energy to organize my thoughts into words, but I am not very good at that.

My present views of feminism are pretty well expressed by Kate O'Beirne in her book "WOMEN WHO MAKE The WORLD WORSE and How Their Radical Feminist Assault Is Ruining Our Schools, Families, Military, and Sports".
 

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LuckyStrike said:
As I see it the original goals of the feminist movement in general, or the NOW in particular were equal treatment under the law, and equal treatment and opportunity and pay in the workplace.

In my view the original goals of feminism have mostly been achieved, but the leadership of feminism was long ago hyjacked by radicals with a lesbian, man hating agenda. The NOW has alienated much of it's original constituency.

I wish I had the time and energy to organize my thoughts into words, but I am not very good at that.

My present views of feminism are pretty well expressed by Kate O'Beirne in her book "WOMEN WHO MAKE The WORLD WORSE and How Their Radical Feminist Assault Is Ruining Our Schools, Families, Military, and Sports".
:up:
 

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valley said:
May I ask for a clearer explanation? Which portion of feminism do you agree with?
any part of it's that dogmatic (pretty sick of all dogmas, actually)...you're example of frowning on a woman's desire to stay at home with the kids is a great example....in every marriage with children, SOMEBODY needs to be there...feminism introduced the idea that it was ok for a man to stay home....no problem with that whatsoever....but that doesn't mean it's better for woman's empowerment...it just means that now there's a valid choice that works in some families.

agreed...this is why there is so much marketing towards pre-teens (and younger!) right now. Its heavily influenced by the feminist agenda, imo.
.....maybe, but that's strikingly political, in my view....i'd imagine that even most lesbian couples that end of with girl children feel similar concerns as you and i.....methinks its more a matter of our economic system...the ameoba of money, absorbing any opprotunity and all product niches....as jaymo points out, captialism is neutral morally, a product of its environment....if parents allow there 12 year old to mimic something provocative on mtv, the fashion industry will run with it....or worse yet, invent and promote the look as a result of "market analysis"

ah, there's a point of contention for me. The feminist movement not only recognizes women as separate from the marriage unit, but it portrays them as victims. It takes a dim view of women who by their own choice, want to be stay at home moms.

I think its a dangerous illusion to present to young women.
yeah...and methinks this is one of the problems that feminism has brought to our society....increased complexity....i mean, when i was in high school, "homemaking" was a serious girl's course, and the school still offered "shop" and other job oriented classes for boys....aside from the rare laughing stock, nobody crossed gender lines, tho they could have....now, kids need to understand choices that were not even considered before feminism....and parents/schools are faced with the daunting task or presenting them, hopelfully without instilling to much convention or bias.

They push the idea that a woman isnt a "real" woman unless she has it all...and claims that she can have it all without sacrificing a thing, which is false, imo.
this drifts into shamou's thread, imo......and points, as well, to the fact that we the people have, for a variety of reasons, never really sat down culturally and sorted through the feminist movement addressing both the wheat of it and its chaff.....or, perhaps, that is process we are engaged in now.
 

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poochee said:
Yes, it take two to have an affair.
Thank you...............
poochee said:
However, a woman has more to lose. She can get pregnant. Then she has to choose to have a baby, or an abortion.
That's something that has always been in place so feminism hasn't really changed it.
poochee said:
Abortion, IMO, is murder.
Different subject for a different thread.
poochee said:
I was pointing out that Feminism encourages women to live like men.
:rolleyes:
So you think we are all a bunch of pigs. There you go lumping all men into the same pile and that's quite sad. Actually it's offensive to most men imo. Consider for a moment we ( men ) could probably spout off a pile of gals names that we know have made terrible choices in their lives. It doesn't matter if it's a male or a female... everybody is capable of " that " despite societies expectations or as you would say " feminism ".
 

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Wimpy369 said:
Thank you...............

That's something that has always been in place so feminism hasn't really changed it.

Different subject for a different thread.

:rolleyes:
So you think we are all a bunch of pigs. There you go lumping all men into the same pile and that's quite sad. Actually it's offensive to most men imo. Consider for a moment we ( men ) could probably spout off a pile of gals names that we know have made terrible choices in their lives. It doesn't matter if it's a male or a female... everybody is capable of " that " despite societies expectations or as you would say " feminism ".
Sorry you read it that way. I'd have to get into religion to discuss it any further with you. And that is not what this thread is about.
 

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LuckyStrike said:
In my view the original goals of feminism have mostly been achieved, but the leadership of feminism was long ago hyjacked by radicals with a lesbian, man hating agenda. The NOW has alienated much of it's original constituency.
Agreed--same with the ACLU and PITA and the SIERRA CLUB and many other organizations that were grass roots and had admirable goals at the beginning, but have since been hijacked by the left and are now used primarily as tools of social distortion rather than advancing desirable social goals.

For example--support for abortion is claimed to be a "feminist" issue when literally half of the women out there (here we have poochee and valley as an example who I know are oppossed to abortion) are oppossed to it--so why in the hell should feminist organizations be blindly supporting it? :confused: Shouldn't they be protecting the rights of ALL WOMEN? :confused:
 

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poochee said:
Sorry you read it that way. I'd have to get into religion to discuss it any further with you. And that is not what this thread is about.
Religion and feminism definitely don't mix if my memory serves me correct.
 

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LuckyStrike said:
n my view the original goals of feminism have mostly been achieved, but the leadership of feminism was long ago hyjacked by radicals with a lesbian, man hating agenda. The NOW has alienated much of it's original constituency.
Wow...I agree with you LS! :up: :) I'm old fashioned I guess...I like where the man supports the woman....;) :) I've never wanted to wear the pants in the family! :D
 

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The other group that gets the "shaft" from the feminist movement are mothers who decide to be career mothers. Feminists resent the hell out of mothers that think its a good idea to be at home with children or if not at home, work a reduced schedule and put their careers on hold during the child rearing years. Again--are these not women? :confused: Shouldn't their rights be protected as well? :confused:

Having 3 daughters and a wife with a career, I obviously want equal opportunity, however, the irony of the feminist movement is that it is now much more difficult for women. When they were suppossedly second class citizens in the 50s, it was easier and very common for women to raise children--that's no longer possible because of course what happened is when the women joined the work force in large numbers, the demand for qualified people of course did not keep up with it so the pay for men overall decreased in terms of purchasing power. The family unit now is forced to rely on two incomes and that's the sad part of all this.
 
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