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Explain to me Israeli support

9286 Views 297 Replies 30 Participants Last post by  linskyjack
Have read many articles over the past couple of years concerning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and understand the basics of the conflict, I think, but I do not understand why the US Government seems to want to back Israel no matter what they do.
1) If terrorist lives in this home then terrorist is killed and family home destroyed even if home is filled with other family members not involved.
2) Arbitrarily annex territory at whim taking over others lands Palestinians have homesteaded for years and use as Israel pleases.
3) The killing of a wheelchair bound, blind and deaf leader.

I assume there is some history to this backing and wish to know.

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Hey Albert,
I don't speak the Queen's English. "And incidentally, Infidel has been very diplomatic in not pointing out the balls up that we British made in our handling of the situation. "
Is that good or bad?:D
Pardon my ignorance but who is the We in "we received a letter from the headquarters of the United Resistance" and whom is the United Resistance?

Think Infidel. One minute your running the whole of the Palestine region, the next you find your balls in your hands. Do you think it could be good? :D

No, we made a real dog's breakfast of the political and social situation from more or less the end of WW1. Still, as has been said at length here on many occasions recently, that isn't any excuse to resort to murderous terroist atrocities, it just offers a stronger case in moral and legal argument. :)
Sorry Davey,

I'm no expert on this matter but I recall some details, and others are easy to find. Oldie and Paq will no doubt have more to offer, they were probably there! :p

The United Resistance was the name given to the overall grouping of all of the various dissident Jewish underground factions. As most terrorist organisations now do, there was a legal mouthpiece, the Jewish Agency, which fronted groups like the Haganah and the Irgun and Lehi. The link between them was proven inconclusively when documents were seized in a raid and openly displayed.

The Haganah command settled on three actions against the British and sent word in a letter to Menahin Begin who was I think the head of the Irgun, (the ex-Prime Minister I mentioned), setting the action against the Hotel. Despite giving a 20 minute warning to the French across the road, and it is surmised to the British themselves, (British incompetence possibly raises its head here), this was carried out with the deaths I posted about.

The fear then was of a British backlash, which never really came. But the leaders of the Jewish Agency and most other factions all distanced themselves from the perpetrators and made a public statement to that effect. To their credit Irgun stayed more or less silent for a year, then when the United Resistance broke apart they saw no need to not go public and made their statement.

One humourous side to this is that the British were blown out of the water politically afterwards when it came to light that some idiot Army officer in charge had decided on a policy of banning all British personnel from consorting with any Jewish businesses as he said that "The aim of these orders are to punish the Jews in a way the race dislikes as much as any, namely by striking at their pockets". This was so antisemitic that we lost face and our high moral position petered out somewhat through it.

So the short answer is "We" is the Irgun who committed the offence, the United Resistance is the political grouping of most of the Jewish underground groups to which they were allied. But when have you ever known me to offer the short answer? ;)
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Thanks! I am getting a real lesson here.
I still am not sure if that explains why the US is so adamant about backing Israel but I am sure the connection will come unless of course it is really oil.

I don't pretend to have a definite answer to that one Davey. It is a welcome relief to find one other American who is openly and actively trying to find out though. :)

I kind of feel that oil is involved in an indirect way in the sense that USA needs a base in the middle east to simply maintain a presence and influence in amongst the oil producers and consequently their customers. I know you are not so dependant upon middle eastern oil nowadays but others are, and influencing the oil consequently influences them.

Knowing a little of how influence is gained over others and can be used or abused I am always aware of the idea of all countries wanting control of things they themselves have no need of simply through their own paranoia or empire building plans. Bargaining positions are built on such things.

Am I paranoid? Not from where I am standing! :D
Consider this, the Torah provides and I'm paraphrasing, that any nation which turns its back on the Jews shall perish. Just thought I'd through that out for consideration.

I too have asked the question, and I think Columbo brings up a valid point re: accusation of anti-semitism.

To be honest, I can find no real reason to support Israel in the current state of the conflict, other than public opinion, which, if TSG is any "slice of the world", is going the other way.

The actions of the Israeli's in their "war on terror" are not, IMO, acceptable. The inactions of Arafat and crew are, IMO, unexplainable, and Hamas....well...easy to figure out.

So to me, it may well be a case of just being stuck on the merry go round, as it were. We aren't going to fully engage, we aren't going to "change sides", and we aren't going to pull business as usual remains. I think that there are religious grounds as well, with Christians in this country believing that Israel has a right to stay in existance, and thus "push" for continued support in that direction, because the percieved alternative is surrender and "homelessness". I also have to wonder if the antiChrist Biblical predictions some believe in regarding the "peacemaker" for that region play a part....whole other tangent.

Full engagement will have every Muslim radical (did I qualify that well enough ;) ) wanting us dead more than they already do for our involvement, and full withdrawal would be suicidal given the support for Israel amongst the masses here at home. So....ride the semi-support wave. :)

BTW, all completely subjective opinion above, derived from no place in particular other than observation, some reading, and discussion here.


wish you were around when I tried to explore this issue. You do seem to try to present a real balance, and I think your taking notice of peoples feelings (last line) shows that.
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Consider this, the Torah provides and I'm paraphrasing, that any nation which turns its back on the Jews shall perish. Just thought I'd through that out for consideration.
So are you trying to say the Jews are backstabbers then? ;)
Also why would the US feel guilty toward the Jewish people?
I believe it would be based upon the actions of the US prior to, and during WWII. We were simply not supportive of the plight of the European Jews, a period of time in which 6,000,000 of them died.

I'll do some research, and see if I can supply some links.

IK - Did you mean to say not secular, or secular?

When I was a horny teen (well late teens) I had been sleeping with a girl for a while and then we broke up and she started seeing another guy. I saw this as absolutely no barrier to continue sleeping with her and was really puzzled that she did not feel that was appropriate. I guess I felt that I continued to have rights in a place I once occupied. (Of course that was in the barbaric 50's. I certainly would not cliam that right today)

So when do you still have a right to land that you used to inhabit and now belongs to someone else?? Or when does a business seized from you by a facist or left regime?

Do the Israelis claim of owning land 2k years ago hold water? If not the do the Palestinians claim of lands owned 50 years ago hold water.
Now that China is in the WTO what about all the land taken from capitalists..Should they get it back. China seems to have extremely sticky fingers taking Tibet and Turkistan and still claiming Taiwan

For that matter what about Kalingrad, or for that matter the land we took from the mexicans

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Davey: I wrote this for you yesterday and shortly after, my system went down: it has taken hours to restore!

Hope this helps, whilst much of the ground has already been covered.



(n.b. Some of the spelling and dates may well be wrong: written from memory - no time to check!


Since the turn of the 20th Century, Great Britain had promised the Jews that it would champion their return to "The promised Land".

Lord Balfour, then Prime Minister, created what was known as the "Balfour Declaration".

A jew called Hertzog, a resident of Vienna, promulgatedf the concept of "The return to Zion" (viz, the Promised Land): hence the terms, "Zionist".

After WW I, the League of Nations, the brain child of US President Woodrow Wilson, assembled the League of Nations, a sort of precursor to the United Nations. Once WW I was finished, Turky, who had fought on the Axis side, lost their possessions in the Middle East and North Africa: these territories were formally called the Ottoman Empire and were vast!

All states occupied and contorlled by the allies were known as "Protectorate" States.

They included Persia (later separated into Iran and Iraq), Eqypt, "Arabia" (Saudia Arabia and the Gulf States) and what is now called the UAE (United Arab Emirates).

During WW II, many Jews fought under the British flag. With the horrors of the Holocaust revealed and hundreds of thousands of Displaced Persons, who included Jews and many other races, pressure grew on Britain to live up to its promise and give the Jews a state of their own in Palestine.

A number of Jewish terrorist organisations became active in the late 1940s, post WW II. Amonst them were Irgun and the Macabees, who took their name from an ancient group, fighting for freedom in Judeaisms' past. (See the Old Testament).

Interestingly, most Israeli Prime Ministers after Golda Meir, had been members of terrorist organisations and would have been hanged if caught by the British!

In the late 1940s, the United Nations was founded and took over the international peace making and peace keeping role, for which Wilson's League of Nations had been intended, but had fallen into discredit.

In 1948, the UN Security Council voted on the matter of Israel once again. To everyone's surprise, Russia voted FOR the establishment of a free Jewish State. The State of Israel came into being in 1948, with David Ben Gurion as its first Prime Minister.

Palestine was a mixture of Arabs, Christians and Jews: Israel was seeded a small amount of land, much of it desert and swamp.

Prior to Israel being granted statedom, many Jews had illegally migrated and various Jewish and Zionist organisations were set-up to raise funds and assist them.

Once Israel had recognised statedom, a mass migration started. Displaced Persons of Jewish birth (By birth, the right to be called a Jew, is passed down from a person's mother - it thus a matriarchal succession.) from Europe were welcomed and assisted.

Jews from many other Middle East Countries, were encouraged to return to "Zion". It is little known, that there were many Jews living in Eqypt, Syria, Persia etc. Many of these were "Seraphic", dark in skin colour and might be considered either light skinned ***** or Arab.

The indigenous Arabs in Palestine, became deeply concerned at these migrations: further, Arab lands and possessions were arbitrarily confiscated by Israel, without compensation, as it built-up its state. A similar fate happened to Christian Palestinians, also.

Because of the tension and hatred that existed between the occupying British army and the Jews, prior to 1948, when the British departed, they ensure that the Arabs and Christians occupied various strategic hill forts and were well armed. By the terms of the UN mandate, Israel was denied armaments.

To build-up the infrastructure and food supplies, new migrants were encouraged to join Kibutzes, which were collective farms.

The Kibutzes became the target of the Arab discidents and to counter constant armed attack, Israeli authorities formed the Pallmach, which were volunteer soldiers, both boys and girls and as young as 13! They were, literally fighting for their lives!

Eventually, this became the Hagannah, or Israeli army.

Jews all over the World, but particularly in the USA, were they had prospered and had come to dominate the worlds of media and finance, were encouraged to contribute large sums, which were used to buy arms.

In 1967 Eqypt, armed heavily and stirred up by the Soviets, suddenly attacked Israel. (The Six Day War). This act, by Eqyptian President Gamal Abdul Nasser, was orchestrated by Russia, as part of their Cold War strategy to de-stablise the region and cripple oil supplies to the USA and UK etc.

As history shows, despite Syria joining in (another Russian Client state), Israel, fortunate to enjoy the leadership and brain of General Moshe Dyan, won very rapidly.

In the early 70s, another unexpected war broke out (Yom Kippur: one of the main Jewish holy days and feasts). Despite most of the army being on leave, a mass mobilisation eventually saved the day. Again President Assad of Syria joined in as did Jordan.

Upon winning this conflict, Israel took even more land, as a Cordon Sanitaire: i.e. a buffer against any more aggression.

The dispossessed Palestinians, gradually became more militant and in the 60s, a leader, Yasser Arrafatt founded the PLO (Palastinian Liberation Organisation). Originally, he was seen as a terrorist, with a price on his head.

Eventually, like so many before, he was feted by World Leaders and recognised by the UN.

Various peace initiatives have been instituted: President Jimmy Carter was instrumental in bringing a declaration of peace between President Anwar Saddat of Eqypt and Israel. (The Camp David Accord). Saddat was later assisinated by his grateful countrymen.

A major cause of friction between the Arabs and Jews, is ownership of Jurusalem. The site of King Soloman's Temple, is now the site of a Muslim mosque. I quote from my friend and Mid-East Scholar, Robert Thompson.

The Dome of the Rock (one of the earliest examples of Islamic achitecture) was built, as I understand it, from 691AD onwards by Abd-al-Malik on the site of the Temple, long before destroyed by the Romans. It is joined to the Al-Aqsa Mosque by a covered passageway. It is said to have been the place from where Mohamed rose to heaven and where Abraham offered to sacrifice Isaac. I am not aware of any Christian claim to it. Below it (to the south I think) is the "Wailing Wall" which is all that is left of the old Temple. This is much appreciated by Jews, and has always been open to them. The architecture of the Dome of the Rock is also said to be based on the Christian style used in the Church of the Holy Sepulchure.


The USA is totally dependant on imported Mid-East crude: without it, their economy would collapse. (The Strategic Oil Reserve, provides a short-term buffer).

The USA enjoys a number of Middle-East client states, such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. ARAMCO, a US conglomerate, manage all crude exploration and lifting in Saudi. The US reciprocates by supplying modern weaponry and training to army and airforce.

However, the USA has a very powerful lobby, in the Jewish business vote and this has created a wholly paradoxical reality!

The USA has traditionally operated a balancing act: kept supplies of modern arms to Israel in balance with arms to Arab states.

The Palestinian, therefore, whether Arab Muslim, Christian or Jew, has been kicked from pillar to post by global political hegomony.

Russia, for example, assisted to foment the revolution in Iran, when the Sha was deposed. Russia mainly wanted access to Iranian crude and warm water Winter ports. (Russia shared a boundary with Iran).

Extremist Jews, have undoubtedly settled land (The West Bank and Gaza Strip) outside the UN remit.

Israel has a legitimate (i.e. UN sanctioned legal right) to occupy as a state, the land originally ceeded to them by the UN mandate.

One can sympathise with their border expansion, since they have been attacked for no provocation, twice and have suffered constant border incursions by (e.g.) the Syrian airforce.

However, the non-Jewish Palestinians, also have the human right to recognition, fair treatment and their land and possessions.

:cool: :cool:
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Davey - I am very concerned that you have failed to recognise we Brits ability to bash ourselves and reveal the truth about our not so glorious ( Imperial ) past :eek:

Had this thread been about the American civil war we ( Brits ) may well have been told to keep our noses out :D

If you gain anything from this thread, then surely it's the fact that Brits are not patriotic to the extent of fanaticism :D

Regards - Oldie

PS - please don't start a thread entitled " The Suez Crisis " :D
Why ever not, Oldie?:D :D

This would be one where we bash the US for a change!

After all, Ike agreed, secretly, to back the UK/French invasion, to preserve a sequestrated French asset: and then Ike turned round in the UN Security Council and reoundly criticised us!

This is one of the present problems with TSG: no one has much real knowledge of history!

Guess that's 'cos I'm old!:( :( :(

:cool: :cool:
Like I said before, it's because you were there! :p

This is one of the present problems with TSG: no one has much real knowledge of history!
What is worse is that everyone sees that as a virtue!

Also history should have no borders but it is too often seen as geographical.
I guess it depends on how the land was lost.

Not sure I place a great deal of credence on the statement "that any nation which turns its back on the Jews shall perish". Sounds to much like the twisting of the Holy Qur'an for militant support.

Thanks for the all the background in this conflict and the creation of the Jewish state. Much makes more sense now.

I and many others here in the states find it refreshing to have other views about our History but sometimes find it hard to swallow a bitter pill. Eventually the pill goes down but not without a fuss.

What has been written here in this thread will take some time to absorb since the sponge is not what it used to be. But I do appreciate the historical education.

I find nothing wrong with criticizing oneself whether a person or a Nation. That is how we discover better ways to accomplish tasks.

Also to answer your indirect question of Knowledge of History...... We Americans were and are slaves of our educational system. History was a mandatory subject in school but very little emphasis was placed on World History. Besides History taught in the latter years of education vs the younger years tends to cause its students to be let me say less interested since other emotional factors are rising in them. (Not an excuse just an observation)

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This is one of the present problems with TSG: no one has much real knowledge of history!
Guess that's 'cos I'm old!
History is something I like and know a bit about Paq. But I am younger so I've had to read more as I've lived through less. Therefore I understand that someone with more 'experience' remembers more of what they have lived through. With this in mind . . .
I must compliment you on your summary of the Israeli/Palestinian 'problem'. I think you've covered it all nicely :)
Since the turn of the 20th Century
Surely not Paq, not that old? :D
Even less knowledge of geography :D

Now let me see - Wot is where iz dis smoky mont Etner :D
.....or for that matter the land we took from the Mexicans
PLS - what's this "we" thingy? :D Speaking for Texas only, we warred and took land from the Mexicans and formed a Republic without the aid of the US. With immigration and birth rates, the Mexicans are slowly taking it back peacefully without firing a shot or suicide bombers. May be the Palestinians could learn something from this.;)
Originally posted by eggplant43:
I believe it would be based upon the actions of the US prior to, and during WWII. We were simply not supportive of the plight of the European Jews, a period of time in which 6,000,000 of them died.

I'll do some research, and see if I can supply some links.

IK - Did you mean to say not secular, or secular?
Non-religious governments are always easier to negotiate with. :)
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