[DNeurococo]

O.K. What do you geniuses out there think about "BPL"? BPL being the proposal to offer broadband over standard power lines.

I've heard some complaints that it will interfere with ham radio and emergency transmissions. Also, that there are problems with privacy, and so on.

What is your verdict?

 

[Paquadez]

Interesting one this, DN.

Most global power companies have been experimenting with using their transmission line for a wide range of data transfer.

In France, my new "computerised" meter is turned to cheap rate at midnight and off at 07.00AM by a pulse sent down the line.

One area the companies are looking seriously at, is remote reading of their meters: think of the cash they will save!

In the UK, some carriers are already using their lines for multi-plexed landline and data.

Privacy? Solved by the correct layers of encryption. Spurious emission of RF? Well, high frequency high voltage mains transmission systems already emit RF interference.

With the spectrum flooded by all sorts of stuff already, can't see how this could make much difference!

3G mobile phones are the biggest future problem: particularly for those who seem to always have one glued to their ear!

Brains will be fried in months!

Paq

 

[Servant of Eru]

I think it's a great idea, as that looks like the only way to get high speed internet here in the near future, and Paq says that he doesn't think it would cause any harm.

 

[AlbertB]

In the past, (many years ago), when I had more time, I have experimented with systems to transfer data and control signals around the home via the power wiring. In principle it is simple, just design and build an isolated transmitter which only has to feed your signals directly into the low impedance of the mains, and an isolator which separates the signal from the mains at the other end, much as your broadband filter does but at higher voltage!!! These can each then be plugged into your mains at any points in the house via the wall sockets.

Problems? How far does the signal travel? Who knows, maybe my neighbours would be able to pick it up, they weren't running the same experiments as me! There is no natural way to prevent anything you put on the mains going out beyond your house losing privacy and of course interfering with others systems. High frequency filtering could provide a barrier on the way out, much as I do as a hifi buff to clean the mains on the way in! There is another problem, it would certainly affect my audio listening if it were allowed at random. And the problem of interference from existing high frequency polluters of the mains signal like industrial switching and power equipment would mean random spurious effects.

An interesting idea but definitely not a new one. Maybe with fast data transfer systems becoming more and more common its time has come.

Whatever, if it becomes a reality, you can bet we'll pay through the nose for this "latest breakthrough" which can be implemented for a few pounds!

For those interested and possessing the foolhardiness of youth, (Servant ), remember the old adage, MAINS BITES! even if it is your puny little weak kneed lilly livered American 110V!

 

[Paquadez]

Interesting this, Al.

My esteemed, "The Doc" (PhD in Engineering - electronics engineer, Programme Manager, mad as a hatter!) used to build mains transceivers back in the 50s.

Got the idea from my late uncle, also another hugely bright but nutty engineer.

Apparently during WW II, Radio Hams were banned from playing: so they turned to mains transmission instead! Can't keep a good guy down! This was, of course, not needing any license, as it was NOT free radiating RF.

I was involved in one UK project which was pioneered by a major electrical wiring component manufacturer. Intended to offer remote control over most in-house functions using FM digital signalling, using the mains wiring.

Personal safety (even at our more grunty 230V A.C. ) is ensured, by using an isolating transformer. (Induces an identical voltage, but is isolated from the current! No grunt!).

One point: if you transmit beyond YOUR phase, anyone on another, cannot receive your signal. So a person on the other side of the road might be on a different phase and not be able to receive. Bearing in mind that Step-Down Transformers are used by the power company, when they, locally change higher volts, Three Phase, to equally loaded single phaae, for most domestic consumers: except in France!).

I know! I played with FM mains intercoms in the early 80s'. My neighbour (line of site: 25 yards) could not receive, since they were on another phase.

However, I gather that things have improved since then!

Interference can be type-specific screened out. This is one prob. they must solve. Fairly simple, today.

Paq

 

[AlbertB]

As you suggested in-house function control was the real aim in my day of course Paq. Switching on the TV from upstairs, ooer Dad, really? . High speed computer links were not needed! We are talking about 20-30kHz signals not 1Mhz, and digital? Digital Scmigital! Contrary to popular belief by the man in the street (know), many things are better left analogue! (Audio I would suggest ).

The isolating transformer principle is one way but is not the only one or even the best. Transformers being ostensibly magnetic current inducing devices, they need to have a current, albeit a small one, flowing through their primary coil to function. The idea of simply sensing around a live stub more like an aeriel and manipulating the signal offered by that leads to higher impedance working and hence suitability to more modern devices with better safety margins. Of course I had to make do with discrete transistors, remember them? Germanium? It could even be argued that the most suitable technology for this application would be valve! ("Toob" for the yanks!)

It will be interesting to see how they approach things nowadays with a different set of requirements and solution technologies. And what we will swallow about the costs of it all of course which will be astronomical as it is such a revolutionary idea! (Am I cynical or what? )

I can still do it nowadays for a few pounds!

 

[Moby]

Albert, talking about transfering data through house wiring, I was reading about this in a magazine this month. Sounds similar to what you were doing.

http://www.lindy.com/uk/productfolder/02/25121/index.php

 

[AlbertB]

That is better than anything I achieved Moby, by some 14-a tad Mbit/sec . The 300 metres distance is interesting and demonstratess what we wre talking about. The encryption should take care of that in the real world though.

 

[Paquadez]

We also played a bit with a system in the early 90s, that offered mains linking for creation of a network. Forget who made them now.

Yes, Al. I do remember Germanium! What it is to become old!

All the best

Paq

 

[eggplant43]

Here's a tutorial on the subject:

http://www.wave-report.com/tutorials/bpl.htm

My take on the subject (first learned about it about three years ago, online): I don't care about the technology, I simply want cheap, fast, efficient, stable, and secure computing. May the best system win.

 

[DNeurococo]

Well, the privacy issue extends a bit beyond someone intercepting your internet communications by standing underneath a powerline and picking up stray signals.

Once it become common to transmit data over power lines, manufacturers will use such to have appliances signal back to the company. Paq already mentioned the electric company reading your meter by remote control. At first, it will be mundane stuff, such as when the washing machine is due for maintenance. But, I fear it will just be a matter of time before my toaster rats me out for smoking pot!

#$DN

 

[DNeurococo]

Eggy wrote: "I don't care about the technology, I simply want cheap, fast, efficient, stable, and secure computing. May the best system win."

You can't get out of your responsibilities as a citizen THAT easy!

Choices have to be made. Are you willing to surrender x amount of privacy for y amount of speed (or cheapness)?

Choices have to be made, and consequences have to be faced.
[Good movie to watch while deciding: Colossus: the Forbin Project

#$DN

 

[Paquadez]

Quite right, DN.

Convergence will simply mean that ALL information,data, entertainment, comms will be carried by an hybrid mix of technologies.

LG, Electrolux amongst others, are already trialling a net connected fridge that orders your groceries as you use them up!

A major project in Italy has wired a house.

Agree about the dangers of the toaster. Fuse it now!

Paq

 

[DNeurococo]

Reminds me of the Woody Allen joke:

He is on a modern talking elevator ("what floor please?") when the elevator stops and asks him:

"Are you the guy who beat up the toaster?"

#$DN

 

[Paquadez]

Some of his films were so clever, DN!

Paq

 

[Paquadez]

Actually, on the same subject, well similar anyway, Mrs P was late arriving home from the City, this evening.

Apparently, a truck crashed into a bridge (the driver was probably talking on his mobile phone!).

Anyway, when she berrated a railway guy, where she got off, he stated that "Well Missus, these new fangled trains are all computerised and they are programmed to know which platform to come into. So when the truck hit the bridge, it screwed the whole afternoon up!"

Seems it is already here, DN!

Paq

 

[DNeurococo]

It was my privilege to visit your fair city once upon a time (early 70's I think).

I thought the "tube" was great! The trains were cheap, fast, efficient, and seemed to pop you up right where you needed to go.

BUT. . .

When they go wrong, they go VERY wrong! I also remember a horrid night trying to get back from the theater on a rainy night.

The "tube" platform was packed (with no signs of the crowd diminishing) there were no cabs, . . . we wound up walking back to the hotel!

#$DN

 

[Paquadez]

Sadly, DN, it is now a whole awful mess!

Mulder and GB will accuse me of being negative, however, I cannot fathom out how any modern economy can operate, effectively, with hugely sub-standard communications infrastructure.

Owing to almost total lack of investment for 30 odd years and tricky plans to part-privatise, it is dreadful!

I last worked in the City in early 1980.

We now live circa 44 miles as the crow flies from the center of London: it takes Mrs P one and one half hours each way!
And costs a bundle....................................

I used to love being in and working in London.

Not the same city anymore, sadly.

I have to go up for a meeting next week: frankly, I'm dreading the travel.

Hang onto your dreams!

Paq

 

[AlbertB]

Mulder and GB will accuse me of being negative,

Let me let you in on a secret Paq. The more negative we appear to get, the more they will stay away, the more the reasons for any negativity evaporate, the more positive we all become!

Only thing deeply negative around this place is the "going to Hell you sinners" and the "paedophile around every corner" stuff that gets posted every other thread now that noone will speak out in plain words against it.

 

[Paquadez]

Thanks, Al.

Well, I suppose I must be grateful for small mercies!

Paq